Would these sea steads have a military?


(Wilfried Ellmer) #42

@BobDohse | please explain :slight_smile:
• what part of not clutter nonsense do you not understand ?
• what part of no attention until you say something intelligent do you not understand ?
• what part of scientific debate only do you not understand
• what part of debate culture do you not understand
• what part of nutcase best attended by ignoring do you not understand ? -


Evolve, or just go away and play somewhere else…


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#43

@ellmer The point he is making is: THIS is not YOUR forum, nor your personal advertizing space FOR your forums, OR your schemes. If you HAD those investors, you would NOT be in here, begging for attention and then demanding money from those that you convince to join.

NOW, back to the topic of military on seasteads…

Consider design principles employed, even by Leonardo Da Vinci (and, YES, he even designed several Forts). Controlling access, and defensive posture are the primary purpose of a Fort.

A SMALL position could be well defended by a single person, or very small group, depending on the size of an attacking force, and their goals.

It has to be assumed that the object is command and control of the vessel, otherwise, sink it and be done with it. Pirates want ransom, terrorists want publicity, possibly hostages, and may want to use the vessel in a greater attack role.

In the adaptation of a vessel capable of handling major storm activity, I am trying not only to emulate the known capabilities of the Ramform, as designed by Roar Ramde, and proven in the North Sea, but as part of that, following the design principles of Frank Kowalski and Safehaven Marine, which makes modest military patrol vessels capable of rolling completely inverted, self-righting, and continuing the mission.

Some of that is structural integrity. Part of that creates a more defensible position, since there are a limited number of openings, all facing aft, and the only forward openings are sealed compartments, and the armored glazing for the cockpit/control-room/cabin. Aft hatches are reinforced and completely securable from within.

Further, many modern sailing vessels have multiple command and control consoles. Some are designed such that a command override from a secured cabin can operate the entire vessel from within a sealed and armored vault-like structure, comparable to an inner citadel, within castle fortifications.

A properly designed vessel can be made that is fully operable, by a single individual, in all foreseen situations. Certain automated motor/sailer yachts also follow that design principle.


#44

@Elmo

… what part of not clutter nonsense - e.g., your commercials for your “investment” schemes - do YOU not understand?


(Larry G) #45

https://www.ruraltraining.org/training/courses/awr-144/

Being an emergency and disaster preparedness professional, I regularly seek out things like the above course. Attended last year. I also have a number of professional contacts involved in maritime security. From my perspective, it’s funny how lots of people opine on things that they clearly have no clue about.


#46

Yes there are plenty that attempt to be THE authority figure, with no knowledge. At least I"ve researched for my own concepts. There are plenty of ways to sink a vessel, even starve one out. A secure cabin with secure controls, coms, and backup food, water, and medical supplies is about as good as a smaller vessel can do.


(Matias Volco) #47

Would these Seasteads have Diplomacy? How about economic gravitas to make the city stand above nation states?

Put it another way, Do you comrades believe the Saya de Malha, or Isola d’lle Rose attempts failed while Sealand survived because of better paramiitary training or some other factor?


(Mariusz) #48

I think diplomacy will be more important than military force. Each seastead, or floating city will need to have its small security force, but by diplomacy they will be able to achieve so much more, especially if they can provide some valuable products to the rest of the world.
It’s also reasonable to say that some seasteads will join forces at some point and form some kind of United Federation of Seasteads :slight_smile:
But I think we’re still “few years” from that day.


(Matias Volco) #49

I also bet on the Star Trek model instead of Star Wars.


#50

General question for all: If a libertarian seastead has no government, how would diplomacy be handled? Wouldn’t each individual person interact independently with any foreign threat?

It seems an oxymoron to think you can have no government and also appointed or elected diplomats.


(Mariusz) #51

Libertarian does not mean anarchist.


(Matias Volco) #52

Nevermind JW’s gratuitious context dropping, it certainly could mean just that, or in biological terms, spontaneous organization.

Clearly you’ve never been part of a Homeowners Association, for which I certainly envy you, but it does make me wonder what was the densest place you’ve inhabited. I do know that you have gone on cruise ship. In that situation you had a cruise host or hostess that could take the (multi-national) passengers’ collective bargains to the captain, shipping line, or in extreme circumstances, insurance company.


#54

You have to remember, Matias, that among all of you, I’m the one who has lived half my adult life with “no government”. That is; I’ve lived in areas so rural that there is no rules, no government, and a county sheriff 60 miles away who only works 40 hours a week. Build a house with no permit, make all the noise or do all the drugs you want. And all my neighbors were doing it also. Libertarian Paradise.

It’s easy to sit in the middle of a city and create opinions about how small government operates. But I strongly suggest that people try it first, to see if they like it. You can do that in any rural county in the western US.

So your answer is “You buy into it and don’t get a choice?” A cruise ship is temporary, and an authoritarian regime. Not many people think that libertarianism is about dictatorships.


(Matias Volco) #55

Sorry I could not distill a sentence out of that, maybe you can try again.

In any case

Another example, here at Discuss TSI we have no government and still Randy works as our representative. When we (I) don’t want to take part in such a “dictatorship” we simply post somewhre else, until we do gain.


#56

Actually, the forum is more of an open-source research department. For a nominal fee, TSI has ownership of all the ideas we put in here, and whatever research that backs our ideas, as an open library. It is a nightmare lacking order, but the search-engine can distill certain aspects.

In another sense, it also lets them oversee how the group dynamics affect the range of topics posted, which gives a view into the types of people that are interested participants, as well as how ‘this’ ‘society’ develops.

Joe, Randy, various board members, admins, as well as group dynamics ride-herd on how the forum functions.

Even as an agonist, psychophants like Ellmer serve a function.

Unfortunately, the lack of better oversight also allows true genius and ability to be run out of the forum, and psychopaths to be allowed in, show themselves and do damage, before being evicted.


#57
"... here at Discuss TSI we have no government ..."

Except when a moderator shows up and disciplines a member. :open_mouth:

Just because TSI usually exercises very casual oversight in the discussion threads doesn’t mean there is no form of government.

State statutes and regulations in every US state mandate a form of government in non-profit organizations. Consequently, government within TSI exists.

How effective the enforcement might be is a different issue … whether that’s within TSI, a particular state, or even within a nation.

But one shouldn’t misconstrue lax governANCE for no governMENT.


(Matthew Thomasson) #58

Regardless of your opinion on the use of weapons; there are some people who have neanderthal like minds and only respond to brute force. When I was aboard the USS Boxer, we had to intervene in a ship that had been taken over by pirates with M2 .50 Cal machine guns. A civilization that is prepared to fight for its right to exist is going to stay alive.


(Jordan) #59

The answer to this question depends on the kind of seastead and the location.

For example, for the one that is hopefully going to be built in a special economic zone off the coast of French Polynesia, I do not believe a military will be necessary. A military’s purpose is to defend, and if we are worried about defending ourselves from French Polynesia, then it’s a bad idea to put a seastead there. French Polynesia has not had to worry about war since WWII, and is an overseas collectivity of France. France provides French Polynesia with justice, security and defense and since the seastead would be within the 200 mile radius in order to not be in international waters and take advantage of the special economic zone French Polynesia would provide, I think having a defense force would be inappropriate and unnecessary ceteris paribus.

However, security could be a different story. Given that the seastead will operate within a special economic zone, it is possible that France will choose not to expend resources by stationing people from the National Gendarmerie on the seastead itself, which would provide a great opportunity for private security forces to show that private markets can be more cost effective, fairer, more dependent upon customer needs, subject to market competition if good service is not offered, etc.

There are examples in the United States of certain small townships etc. hiring private security companies to provide policing services, because they outbid the local sheriff’s department in response time and cost and provided better customer service. I see no reason why that can’t be done on a seastead, and every reason why it should be.

If the seastead were in international waters (I have been daydreaming about the French Polynesia seastead changing in role to a sort of embassy to France and French Polynesia once one is built in international waters later), then there may be more need for a military, as we would have no one to protect us.

I think I disagree with ellmer, who seems to be saying that military is obsolete. It will only be obsolete when everyone thinks it’s obsolete (hopefully soon), until then there will be a need.


(Jordan) #61

You know, I think it’s great as a last-ditch effort for security forces to pitch in on defense. But I think it’s a problem to have them have the same duties. Militarized police forces have caused problems in the US, as we’ve seen. I agree with you on point defense and short range weapons.

Edit: Sorry, I’m new to posting on here. I thought my response would go below your comment, and when it didn’t I deleted it.


(Jordan) #62

Violence and enforcement are not necessary for a society to function. However, the society won’t function at all if outside parties try to take over, steal, pirate invade, etc. That covers the need for some kind of defense force if the seastead were in open waters. Regarding security, it wouldn’t be so much enforcement as it would be response to crime and provision of safety, which would be necessary no matter what.

The fact that you’re arguing the semantic of private mercenaries vs. private military is irrelevant. Another word for mercenaries is private military companies. The fact is, that there could be a need for some kind of defense force, depending on the situation.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #63

@osirisadvocate | You made your point well - i stand corrected. Depending on the circumstances a very small private defense force might be suitable some times…military (as highly flexible task force) is not always and in any case obsolete as we speak, but i insist the concept is on its way to a deep transition…threat to society in an oceanic future may rather be things like ocean acidification, asteroid impact, economic instability, chernobyl, ruthless self interest in politics and religion, internal divisions, avian flu, and things like that. Armed humans from somewhere else will not be very high on the “expected problem list” - in general. Those problems will call for other (smarter) methods than “guns” to be dealt with. I doubth that the "ammosexual business model presented by @jwliberstead " will play a leading role in the seasteading movement - i see little reason for it.


But in the end seasteading is about everybody getting his way on his island - so in a niche - it might happen.

Hypothesis: Open Society instead of Militarized Society


In general i expect seasteads to go down the business Model of Venice, a open minded society, free trade with everybody, marine sophistication, free art, free literature, free thoughts, wide cultural exchange, broker in conflicts, prosperity based on trade fleets and commerce. Key player in Enlightenment. Rather on the other end of the scale than a “militarized society”.


context:

Freedom of mind and code is key ingredient for success and prosperity - militarisation and enforcement is a ingredient where the principle of “less is more” (Mies Van Der Rohe principle) applies.

• How non enforcement societies based on volutary opt in / opt out and “culture base” can work - examples | classification societies | burning man |