Why Seasteading what is the point?

(Wilfried Ellmer) #1

Continuing the discussion from Reviewing DeltaSync’s construction estimates on the simple square Concrete Caissons:

Legal uncertainty can be a asset that a good project manager can work in favor
(Jerry Dixon) #2

Unless the local seasteaders still want to force others to live their lives in a certain way.

(Matias Volco) #3

if seasteads are as small as a captain and his (or her) nuclear family then the social dynamics would be very similar to those that exist among commercial ships and yachts: under one code, one language, and with prevalent respect. Of course there are pirates and instances of very large ships simply running over small fishing piraguas, but in general I find it that being under the constant reminder of Nature’s inexorable power is enough to keep men from behaving in the unthinkable ways they do at land.

(stephen russell) #4

Move population or some to sea
Reuse land for farming, forestry
Expand land use.
Use Ocean more.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #5

@admnelson1, i agree seasteading is absolute necessary and inevitable on a 7 billion inhabitant oceanic planet we can not do business as usual in the next 30 years. We need to move a big part of the population and a big part of the production sites out on the ocean and we need to start doing so today to asure the survial of the human race.

(John) #6

Why not? With the fire and blinding, choking smoke from the burning bridges and homes around the world spreading into our homes freedom, liberty and justice for all just does not exist! We are ‘free’ to drop down where the air is clear. We have the ‘liberty’ to crawl out of our burning homes and if we live and have enough money to buy ‘justice’ for ourselves, well there you have it! Seasteading and a new country is about the only peaceful way to start over. We are not seditionists. Our goal should not be to alter or abolish the Powers of the Earth (they’ll destroy themselves soon enough). We intend to build new communities of like-minded individuals who shall not rely on the accident of birth or geography to define each other as comrades; individuals who instead share a common belief in the Libertarian ideals of Freedom and Self-Determination and who desire to share in the common heritage of humankind on the Sea.

(.) #7

Little House on the Prairie

(Jonas Smith) #8

First of all, let’s get some facts straight. The thing that uses the most land is agriculture.

According to 2012 numbers from the World Bank 37.7% of the Earth’s land area is “agricultural land” defined as “arable, under permanent crops, and under permanent pastures.” University of Wisconsin-Madison scientists showed a similar number using satellite data back in 2005.

You can compare that to the fact that, also according to the World Bank 2012 numbers, 31.0% of the Earth’s land surface is “forest area”, defined as “land under natural or planted stands of trees of at least 5 meters in situ, whether productive or not, and excludes tree stands in agricultural production systems (for example, in fruit plantations and agroforestry systems) and trees in urban parks and gardens.”

So that is almost 70% of the Earth’s land area taken up by agriculture and trees.

Now compare that to a 2005 study called the “Global Rural Urban Mapping Project” which showed that only 3% of the Earth’s land area is occupied by “urban areas”. Another study, this one done in 2008 by the European Commission’s Joint Research Centre, dropped the “urban” designation and looked at overall population density and found that “95% of the world’s population is concentrated on just 10% of the world’s land”.

So the problem is not moving the people, it’s changing the way we feed those people. So focusing on seasteading as a means to find homes for people is a huge mistake and does not have any impact on the primary issue of shrinking available land.

I only see one reason for pursuing seasteading…to prepare for the eventual colonization of space. It is the one way we can perfect the technologies required for self-sustainability and closed-cycle habitation humans will require in space. It is also the only way we can experiment with new forms of societal organization and governance that living in space will force upon us.

All the other problems facing this planet can be handled by either improving the existing methods or more efficient use of those same methods.

(Anenome) #9

It’s interesting that this current of thought runs through seasteading–spacesteading has always been part of my motivation for working in seasteading, and Joe Quirk has said similar things as well.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #10

consider the road problem the infrastructure for the 3% of population center is kicking nature out of equilibrium the watersurface needs no road - infrastructure that will lead to the next steps of human development needs to be built on water on our oceanic planet land space needs to be “handed back over” to nature.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #11

seasteading will definitly be a natural stepping stone to spacesteading it opens a window of 30 years of additional sustainability on the planet that gives our civilization enough time to madure to make it to space colonization.

(Jonas Smith) #12

50% of the land space already belongs to nature. Only 3% is urbanized. Nature doesn’t need our space, she has plenty of her own.

On top of that, Nature is highly inefficient and wasteful. You are seriously talking about abandoning the cities and suburbs and letting the hyenas and coyotes run wild in the streets? That is just ridiculous.

Our energy is better focused on increasing the efficiency of our current agriculture systems, moving towards cleaner and more sustainable energy production, and perhaps moving both of those components out into the coastal waters.

(Matias Volco) #13

I suspect a lot more than 3% of the COASTLINES in temperate and tropical regions is developed.
While many megacities are in the time of air travel located inland (Orlando, Las Vegas, Atlanta, Denver), most people still live next to the ocean. Suburban sprawl (particularly in emerging economies) threatens already protected wild land and farmland. The point is to avoid the last inch of natural coastline to be developed, not to abandoned already thriving cities. Obviously.

What is the point of Seasteading? It’s been in the collective mind for ages but as of this century mankind has just created artificial intelligence, closed the loop of globalization and created an world wide network that relies mostly on air and sea (or seabeds) to move information and containers around.

There is a new global identity, which is non national. Free zones, Zona Franca, or Free ports or “Foreign Trade Zones” currently exist, but the World needs bigger global Free Zones.

Water could work as the primordial chaos where a new civilization can be conceived using the new technology available. The ocean is a large un-claimed blank slate. The material world can be more easily controlled and built by machines if it consists of a large regular open matrix instead of the intricacies of inland geography.

(Jonas Smith) #14

Says who?

Furthermore, space colonization is also no answer to overpopulation…if that is even a problem which I don’t believe it is. How many people do you think are going to move off-planet in the next half century? Hundreds? Thousands? You can’t even get people to move to seasteads, you most certainly aren’t going to get people to move to space stations.

There is plenty of space on land for another 4 billion or so people. What we don’t have is enough land to feed those 4 billion at first-world standards, and that is where we need to focus our energy…not floating cities or suburbs.

(Jonas Smith) #15

"Presently about 40% of the world’s population lives within 100 kilometers of the coast. "

(Wilfried Ellmer) #16

doubth that - the current mass extinction of species is a clear stress signal of the sistem - like rivets popping out of our life support sistem…a reduction of the “pressure on the sistem” seems highly recommended - seasteading will get us there…even in the seventies - when population was half as it is now - the pressure was too much already.

(Jonas Smith) #17

Currently almost 7 billion people live on only 10% of the Earth’s land area. 40% is agriculture. 50% is untouched. If we can take only 10% of that untouched land we can easily fit another 7 billion.

The problem isn’t fitting the people, it’s feeding them. Those are two completely different issues.

The world population is estimated to jump to 11 billion by 2050. How many people do you think we can fit on floating cities in the next 35 years? A few million at most? There is no way seasteading is going to have any impact on population growth or distribution.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #18

it is the “disruptive effect” of all togehter - but mostly road infrastructure is the prime damage maker - water allows to skip road infrastructure all together.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #19

understand the potential of floating real estate

(Matias Volco) #20

Agriculture extended the concept of sedentary communities, and cities, from just a few to everywhere, they are required to sustain the infrastructure for land-based agriculture just as much as they depend on agricultural land.

Extracting food from the ocean is already moving from the equivalent of wild hunting (fishing) to aquaculture. For aquaculture to expand to fit the current and future demands it will have to go out of land, out of the coastline and finally out to sea. Farming the sea will require permanent settlements.

I don’t know this with certainty but ocean colonization could behave in an exponential manner. Making one seastead seems as difficult as making one computer in 1955. Who could have thought back then that about a third of the world population would carry one of those in the pocket a few decades later?