What about applying the seasteading concept to refugee problems NOW 2.0?


#9

Matias
Matias Volco
3h
A guy in the Caribbean harbour of Cartagena has been applying the concept of seasteading to help refugees from the worst war torn areas of the hemisphere for decades!

Broad claim with zero ref. Documentation would certainly be needed to back such a statement.


(Larry G) #10

When was the last time tha telling somebody they could have something for free if they fail, but would have to pa for it if they’re successful, worked out well?


(Andrew) #11

There was a very wealthy individual who offered to buy one of the Greek islands for the refugees to use (opposed to creating an artificial island colony) but it was turned down by the regulatory commissions among other things.

There is no chance in having public money go to a seastead.

That said, it would be curious if the individual would consider funding if there is a viable proposal.


#12

Consider that at least a few of us are planning to build our own seasteads… Homebuilt seaworthy vessels have been around for millennia. Do your research, decide what suits you and go from there.

My concept centers around the patented design for the Ramform vessels, of Roar Ramde. Proven seaworthy, with scalable specs. Once I can have the plans done by a professional marine architect and engineer, I will build a model and have testing done, then adapt from there, before I build.


(Mezza-Garcia) #13

What´s his name, Matías? Of the guy in Cartagena, and is he actually based in Cartagena at the moment?


(jjackson) #14

Well this would be a utilitarian approach. Healthcare doesn’t have to be there in the beginning. Just think about how the US was build and by whom? By the poorest, least educated people of Europa that had to save up to pay the one way trip over the Atlantic. Today every refugee is more educated than the settlers back then and has much more access to additional information if needed.


(jjackson) #15

Actually my student loan works that way. If I make more than 30k a year I pay back a share of my income, if not I don’t. I think it is an amazing financing principle because it has a ‘failure insurance’. It thus encourages to fail. It is based on the assumption that nonetheless everyone prefers to succeed and pay that fee than to fail and save it. That is why it works :slight_smile:


(Bob LLewellyn) #16

The reason governments and even rich folk won’t use a seastead for the refugees is because no one has done it before successfully. Once that nut is cracked, you will see barge flotillas going into troubled areas. But until we prove to the world that ocean villages are safe and we know how to handle medical problems, food distribution and fresh water (sweet water) the governments can’t take that chance so the just won’t risk it.

Of course our medical facilities are for profit so would not be a good model to help those rescue facilities however, medical could be provided by doctor without boarders and food provided through aid programs. Once the crisis is over, everyone goes back home and the flotilla is free to move to the next troubled spot.

In actuality, the only thing preventing us from doing that and a whole lot more is the ‘will’ to do it. We at the Marinea Project have that will and it is moving forward, that’s because we are attracting others that have that same will power and a wide range of talents as well.
Bob


(Larry G) #17

Actually, there a huge number of studies and current policy discussions talking about exactly this- how unsustainable and counterproductive student loan programs can be. It’s basic economics- price is signalling value. People waste education dollars because they don’t self-ration in a logical manner when subsidized. It’s not a system that “works well” for anybody except the institutions printing degrees.


(Gordon Hoffman) #18

I don’t think refugees would be interested in a Seastead. That should be their own idea. Maybe if there was enough surplus floating barges with infrastructure services, maybe someone’s prototype number one which works well enough. I don’t see enough Seastead designs with food producing capabilities - probably need twice as much area of the minimum requirement.
So there would be wave reducing, energy generating and storage tanks, with Mangrove Forest and bike riding trail on the outside, then the kelp and fish farm areas, then other food growing areas, then the marina, and then the Seastead facility. Will this move away from storms, or submerge and/or close up like a lotus flower until the storm passes?
Money will have to be generated to purchase things there Seastead can’t produce - clothing, toilet paper, soy sauce. No one can be on dangerous meds that can’t be neutralized by the composting system. It’s not a cruise ship.


(.) #19

I do not know how seasteading would work for the refugee problem, or
how it could be made to work for it.
I have lots of first hand experience with refugee problems.
I do not know how it would help the homeless either. I have lots of
first hand experience with the homeless and homelessness also.

But, I think seasteading could work for me. And when it does, I can tell
others how it works for me, so others can make a decision how it could
work for them.

Homelessness is such a complex problem, that even Christ said that

  • The poor will always be with you. - (Though I do not go to any church).
    A significant amount of people think even God cannot solve the problems
    of the poor. How could I take up such a project?

I might find solutions for my own difficulties, and that might show an
example for others.

And I would not like to discourage anyone doing their own projects.


(Bob LLewellyn) #20

[quote=“spark, post:19, topic:1980”]
even God cannot solve the problems
of the poor.[/quote]

Poor is a state of mind. Are monks or Mother Theresa poor because they don’t have money? The homeless is homeless because they have not understood the problems of their existence. Once a problem is understood, answers almost present themselves.

Over half of Americans could not lay their hands on a $1000 if the had an emergency. No one teaches financial intelligence so the poor are poor because that is what they know. In vast numbers, lottery millionaires are broke and back in debt within seven years. No matter how much you give them, they can’t figure out how to use it. Now once we understand the problem we see that the plight of the poor is very different than that of a refugee.

We are using the wrong term for the homeless due to some tragedy rather than the homeless due to ignorance. Refugee comes from the word refuge. These people are not refuge, they are valuable contributors to their previous society. They are assets but not identified ones. A floating village would put these assets to their best use, reducing the cost of temporary care. Now the cost to the neighboring countries doesn’t have to come in the form of food blankets and tents but in dollars to pay their fair share like the NATO countries do for security. (Joke intended).

Now to defeat poverty, we need only to teach financial security.


#21

Being poor is relative, not a state of mind. When one cannot purchase basic necessities, afford housing, or afford to move from one housing situation to a more reasonably priced solution, then circumstances dictate a state of being poor, or impoverished.


(Bob LLewellyn) #22

[quote=“JL_Frusha, post:21, topic:1980”]
Being poor is relative, not a state of mind.[/quote]

It’s no relative of mine.


#23

Must not be too far from your door. You’re in here trying to drum up funds to build…


(Larry G) #24

Yes- by definition: they take a “vow of poverty.”

True, and not a new problem. The wealthy have, through history, looked down upon the “nouveau riche” because they didn’t understand how to deal with wealth, and often squandered it. Our celebrity entertainers in the modern world- they have essentially “found” wealth rather than created it, and it’s often reflected in their poor understanding of how wealth is created, and sustained, and spread to those who are not yet wealthy.

Refugees may or may not have been poverty stricken before they needed refuge. Many were wealthy or at least working class before circumstance befell them, and they do not lack for motivation, in many cases. However, that motivation can still be stifled and eve extinguished by lack of opportunity.

Yet another class other than those simply ignorant of how to build wealth, are those who CHOOSE to be homeless. Many people simply do not want to work, do not want to follow systemic societal rules, and do not care one way or the other how much stuff they have, or in many cases don’t even carefor what other people consider comfort, or necessity. If you don’t mind pooping on the ground, and don’t care about personal hygiene, a toilet and running water are not “necessary”.

Again, ‘necessities’ aren’t always necessary. In Iraq and Afghanistan, we often couldn’t get locals to use a toilet. They would rather crap alongside the berm around the camp than use a port-a-john toilet. To them, what we consider basic, necessary hygiene was not only unnecessary, it wasn’t even desirable.

If one’s customary housing is a bedouin tent, one may well look down on people who live in houses of mud or stone because their lifestyle is static.Is the tent bedouin more impoverished than the person who chose to live in a hut?

Poverty is both a state of mind and relative. To a rich man, someone with less income is living in poverty. To me, a person with high income living way beyond their means is a step from poverty. The primary mechanisms of wealth-building are delayed gratification and future orientation. Sadly lacking in the poor, fairly common amongst the rich. Consider Maszow’s hierarchy- is a person wealthy before they achieve self actualization? When they achieve love? Does it take societal esteem? I personally would not trade places with past millionaire John D. Rockefeller, because despite his relative wealth compared to his contemporaries, he lived in a period of appalling scientific and medical ignorance and lack of physical comforts and security that even our modern welfare recipients don’t have to endure. I think I would personally put the beginnings of the “wealthy” class at the stage where they have achieved physiological needs and a measure of future security.

Even rich people collaborate to invest in large projects.


(Bob LLewellyn) #25

[quote=“JL_Frusha, post:23, topic:1980”]
You’re in here trying to drum up funds to build…[/quote]

That’s not what this forum is good for. I never hid my intentions for being on here, I’m keeping my eye out for talent. The Marinea Project formed on here. I was amazed at the quality of talent that found their way here. Our CEO has an MBA from Harvard, pretty good credentials but that is the quality of the people that we have on here.

We still need a lawyer and a CFO of some type, however we still have time for that. But I never meant to mislead anyone, once we started this pilot project, that is where my attention has to be. I hold conversations with others with similar interests as mine on here but my focus is always Marinea and will be until I see it in the water. I hope that doesn’t bother you, About the relative thing, I meant no offense, it was just a joke.


#26

Basic necessities for food, water, housing, heating and cooling all have price tags. That was my point. Depending on location and situations, that may by a personal investment of labor, or monetary costs.

Regulations being what they are, I just bought a $1k composting toilet and a $400 composted, to deal with regulations on waste disposal. That may well screw up my land purchase. I’ve been homeless, been abused for not having an income sufficient to afford housing, had possessions stolen because the police were indifferent to the plight of the homeless.

Poverty isn’t anything to joke about. I just moved, when we had to borrow funds to do so, so that we can escape the expense of a high rent area. I have no earthly idea how I’m going to pay that back.

Things that we, in 1st World countries count as necessities are admittedly different than survival necessities. That toilet and composter are long term investments in a healthy survival for my family. Treating wastes to make fertilizer, to raise food, to cut other expenses.

I understand differently, because I have to live with poverty. That isn’t a reflection of intellect, or dreams, just a current fact.


(Larry G) #27

On the contrary, handled correctly, everything is something to joke about. It’s better to laugh in disbelief at how artificially hard things can be made to be, than to get frustrated and break down in tears.

I also have been homeless for a short period. It’s scary.


Real Estate Paradigm Shift | oceanic business alliance | oceanic real estate | floating real estate |
#28

The absolute hardest thing I’ve had to face is homelessness WITH dependents and pets. By myself, not nearly as much of a problem.

That has been within the last several weeks. Perhaps in a few months, I may from find humor in bits and pieces, but that will take time. However, it’s not something to carelessly toss jokes AT.