What about applying the seasteading concept to refugee problems NOW 2.0?

(jjackson) #1

Continuing the discussion from What about applying the seasteading concept to refugee problems NOW?:

Well the beauty of Seasteading is this: Currently refugees are net resource consumers (they are not allowed to work in Europe, millions are spent to make them learn local languages like German, French or whatever). But they could become net resource producers. They have skills, drive, passion. They want to move forward in life. So the e.g. European union just needs a small amount of money to build the first Seastead. Then they have to pay back that initial investment if the Seastead is doing well. Invested resources can be used again and less resources are necessary in the first place (because no new language needs to be learned). This will also cause less problems. Because there is no NEED to integrate people. We are not forcing people anymore to come to a cultural compromise. British people can go on living their lives while Syrians can keep their traditions, language etc. Finally integration might become a voluntary act. And giving refugees an alternative to their destroyed/chaotic home countries is just a matter of liquidity.


Problem boils down to costs, though. I think we all can agree that, even on the cheap end, at ~$100 per square foot, which is luxury home prices, for basics, due to the hull and still needing to provide all support services.

I just have a hard time believing that it won’t become a new way to segregate and forget the poor. They ALL have to be evacuated if there’s a major storm, and if it goes down, now they’re all back to square one.

Also, they become a captive situation, such that the enemies that forced them out, now have them collected into a single location, to blow apart and kill them all.

(Larry G) #3

Learning a new language is not the only barrier to being a resource producer, I would opine that it may be one of the smaller ones.

This is such a broad, and unsupported statement as to be difficult to accept. Some refugees have skills and drive. Many do not.[quote=“jjackson, post:1, topic:1980”]
European union just needs a small amount of money to build the first Seastead. Then they have to pay back that initial investment if the Seastead is doing well.

I guarantee if you start shipping refugees to floating off-shore platforms, and involuntarily commit them to debt servitude, you will not gain any friends.

Refugees cannot keep their traditions, not primarily because they are forced to integrate where they end up, but because there was some problem with where they came from. If everything was great without changing anything, they wouldn’t need to flee the situation. My own ancestors had to give up clan warfare and distrust of strangers to become successful in America, and to the extent that certain families kept those traditions in certain regions of the US, they are among the most backward, poor, and benighted areas of my country today (Scots-Irish hillbillies in Appalachia).

Anyway, one of the greatest strengths of Western Civilization is the ability to integrate, adapt, and adopt. The West gains far more from the influence of immigration than it costs to integrate people.

Giving anyone anything they are not invested in, is a waste of time and resources. Not just a waste: it’s counter-productive and often makes things worse. Even giving a family member or personal friend a gift is only worthwhile because you’re investing in a relationship. People don’t value what they don’t earn, and they don’t want exactly what you want for them or what you think that they want. So it’s not just a matter of having excess resources available, it’s also a matter of using them fruitfully, in accordance with individual needs, according to the best judgement of those with the most applicable and complete knowledge of those needs- the individual him/herself.

Are Syrian refugees asking for European assistance in building themselves some Seasteads?

(Matias Volco) #4

A real free opportune economic frontier is such where old world traditions and people are flowers in a desert, where the transplant is so harsh, and in hopes of such a providential yield, that every man and woman is a blessing. Where Nature is Man’s biggest challenge in plain sight all human souls share in their plight and grace.

Manpower, and thus a restoration of the worth of Man, is needed in this biggest “continent” yet to be fully charted.

Stefan Zweig - The Land of the Future

(jjackson) #5

Most are not fleeing because they are personally targeted but rather because the general situation is bad and they might die by accidentally getting between the fronts. Plus a Seastead a bit far away from their countries of origins can provide the same level of security from the enemies they were fleeing from as being in the US/Europe.

(jjackson) #6

Well nobody knows about Seasteading. I am sure if you asked Europe’s prime ministers none will have ever heard of Seasteading. And it will surely not be for all. There will be a self-selection. But the optimistic, young, energetic and hopeful ones will probably be interested.

Oh whether your family meets for the end of the Muslim Ramadan or because of Christmas, does not really matter. Yet there are public holidays for Christmas but not for the Eid (end of Ramadan).

Unfortunately very true, but if the Seasteading thing was just an option for the refugees (either this or stay in refugee homes on land) and the payback is relative to financial success (you only pay if you are successful) it might be accepted enough to be done.

I think investing all your family wealth into a one way ticket is proof enough for drive. Surely they are not all the same. But there are enough super driven and passionate refugees to fill up several Seasteads. :slight_smile:


So far, there are no seasteads, and the one being planned is priced in the neighborhood of $660/sq-ft.

Governments and the very wealthy can afford them, at this price. Refugee Millionaires don’t seem to be very plentiful.

Still, IF the materials were available for free, IF the engineering was free, you aren’t likely to have refugees from the middle East, capable of building such a thing. Refugees with skills tend to find work, one way, or another.

However, suppose, just for argument’s sake, that you manage to find a crew of skilled workers to build such a thing, with those Millions of Dollars worth free tools and supplies, and now they own it. How are they going to pay to haul it offshore? How are they going to supply it? What will they do for power, food, water, sanitation, healthcare and the millions of other things that everyone seems to take for granted will, by magic, because it was built, just happen…?

(Matias Volco) #8

A guy in the Caribbean harbour of Cartagena has been applying the concept of seasteading to help refugees from the worst war torn areas of the hemisphere for decades!


Matias Volco
A guy in the Caribbean harbour of Cartagena has been applying the concept of seasteading to help refugees from the worst war torn areas of the hemisphere for decades!

Broad claim with zero ref. Documentation would certainly be needed to back such a statement.

(Larry G) #10

When was the last time tha telling somebody they could have something for free if they fail, but would have to pa for it if they’re successful, worked out well?

(Andrew) #11

There was a very wealthy individual who offered to buy one of the Greek islands for the refugees to use (opposed to creating an artificial island colony) but it was turned down by the regulatory commissions among other things.

There is no chance in having public money go to a seastead.

That said, it would be curious if the individual would consider funding if there is a viable proposal.


Consider that at least a few of us are planning to build our own seasteads… Homebuilt seaworthy vessels have been around for millennia. Do your research, decide what suits you and go from there.

My concept centers around the patented design for the Ramform vessels, of Roar Ramde. Proven seaworthy, with scalable specs. Once I can have the plans done by a professional marine architect and engineer, I will build a model and have testing done, then adapt from there, before I build.

(Mezza-Garcia) #13

What´s his name, Matías? Of the guy in Cartagena, and is he actually based in Cartagena at the moment?

(jjackson) #14

Well this would be a utilitarian approach. Healthcare doesn’t have to be there in the beginning. Just think about how the US was build and by whom? By the poorest, least educated people of Europa that had to save up to pay the one way trip over the Atlantic. Today every refugee is more educated than the settlers back then and has much more access to additional information if needed.

(jjackson) #15

Actually my student loan works that way. If I make more than 30k a year I pay back a share of my income, if not I don’t. I think it is an amazing financing principle because it has a ‘failure insurance’. It thus encourages to fail. It is based on the assumption that nonetheless everyone prefers to succeed and pay that fee than to fail and save it. That is why it works :slight_smile:

(Bob LLewellyn) #16

The reason governments and even rich folk won’t use a seastead for the refugees is because no one has done it before successfully. Once that nut is cracked, you will see barge flotillas going into troubled areas. But until we prove to the world that ocean villages are safe and we know how to handle medical problems, food distribution and fresh water (sweet water) the governments can’t take that chance so the just won’t risk it.

Of course our medical facilities are for profit so would not be a good model to help those rescue facilities however, medical could be provided by doctor without boarders and food provided through aid programs. Once the crisis is over, everyone goes back home and the flotilla is free to move to the next troubled spot.

In actuality, the only thing preventing us from doing that and a whole lot more is the ‘will’ to do it. We at the Marinea Project have that will and it is moving forward, that’s because we are attracting others that have that same will power and a wide range of talents as well.

(Larry G) #17

Actually, there a huge number of studies and current policy discussions talking about exactly this- how unsustainable and counterproductive student loan programs can be. It’s basic economics- price is signalling value. People waste education dollars because they don’t self-ration in a logical manner when subsidized. It’s not a system that “works well” for anybody except the institutions printing degrees.

(Gordon Hoffman) #18

I don’t think refugees would be interested in a Seastead. That should be their own idea. Maybe if there was enough surplus floating barges with infrastructure services, maybe someone’s prototype number one which works well enough. I don’t see enough Seastead designs with food producing capabilities - probably need twice as much area of the minimum requirement.
So there would be wave reducing, energy generating and storage tanks, with Mangrove Forest and bike riding trail on the outside, then the kelp and fish farm areas, then other food growing areas, then the marina, and then the Seastead facility. Will this move away from storms, or submerge and/or close up like a lotus flower until the storm passes?
Money will have to be generated to purchase things there Seastead can’t produce - clothing, toilet paper, soy sauce. No one can be on dangerous meds that can’t be neutralized by the composting system. It’s not a cruise ship.

(.) #19

I do not know how seasteading would work for the refugee problem, or
how it could be made to work for it.
I have lots of first hand experience with refugee problems.
I do not know how it would help the homeless either. I have lots of
first hand experience with the homeless and homelessness also.

But, I think seasteading could work for me. And when it does, I can tell
others how it works for me, so others can make a decision how it could
work for them.

Homelessness is such a complex problem, that even Christ said that

  • The poor will always be with you. - (Though I do not go to any church).
    A significant amount of people think even God cannot solve the problems
    of the poor. How could I take up such a project?

I might find solutions for my own difficulties, and that might show an
example for others.

And I would not like to discourage anyone doing their own projects.

(Bob LLewellyn) #20

[quote=“spark, post:19, topic:1980”]
even God cannot solve the problems
of the poor.[/quote]

Poor is a state of mind. Are monks or Mother Theresa poor because they don’t have money? The homeless is homeless because they have not understood the problems of their existence. Once a problem is understood, answers almost present themselves.

Over half of Americans could not lay their hands on a $1000 if the had an emergency. No one teaches financial intelligence so the poor are poor because that is what they know. In vast numbers, lottery millionaires are broke and back in debt within seven years. No matter how much you give them, they can’t figure out how to use it. Now once we understand the problem we see that the plight of the poor is very different than that of a refugee.

We are using the wrong term for the homeless due to some tragedy rather than the homeless due to ignorance. Refugee comes from the word refuge. These people are not refuge, they are valuable contributors to their previous society. They are assets but not identified ones. A floating village would put these assets to their best use, reducing the cost of temporary care. Now the cost to the neighboring countries doesn’t have to come in the form of food blankets and tents but in dollars to pay their fair share like the NATO countries do for security. (Joke intended).

Now to defeat poverty, we need only to teach financial security.