Venus Project as Example


#1

Has anyone looked at the Venus Project?


(Chad Elwartowski) #2

Imagine no possessions…

It’s a communist cult that wants to end capitalism. You can buy their books and videos on their website for a price.

They also state that in order for their ideal to work they would have to force the whole world to follow their plan. Worked for Stalin, Mao and Hitler…why not now?


#3

I don’t agree that it’s a communist cult. They had a number of ideas including cities on the sea which seem to be related to the Seasteading idea.

I believe the Venus project main idea is of a resource based economy rather than a monetary based economy. The USA has the physical resources however many people are homeless, lack food security, healthcare, clean water, etc. There is clearly room for improvement in the existing monetary based model.

Another idea I saw recently is a village in Spain where the city owns all the land and people who live there are assigned jobs they want.

The point is the current money based system is not working for millions of people.


(.) #4

I agree. It appears to be a communist cult. I know one when I see one.


(noboxes) #5

It’s called capitalism. And i agree.


#6

I don’t believe the Venus project advocates the use of force which is a key component of other communistic cults. Capitalist systems rely on the use of force, for example people must work for income and income taxes are required under threat of force. The entire system becomes one where the citizens are reduced to slaves.
This is the situation in nearly every country today. I hope the the Seasteading community offers an alternative.


#7

Wrong. It’s BILLIONS of people.

Also, it’s not the monetary based system “fault”,… Money is just money.

It’s in the distribution of the means of production that should be spread as widely as possible between all members of a society, rather than being centralized under the control of few individuals (plutocracy-capitalism), or the state (socialism-communism).

Of course it does. But it will cost you some money :smile:


#8

Another point is that even if you move to Seasteading off-shore location, as a US citizen you must still file an income tax return and pay US taxes. The US is one of a few countries that still demands taxes even if you are not living in country.

Does Seasteading community offer a passport? If so what are the plans for taxation? There are only a handful of locations on the planet that don’t require income taxes. I don’t mind giving up earned income to help others and provide services. What I object to is being forced under threat of violence if I choose not to support in the event the government is not providing for others and wasting the money or spending on projects which are harmful.

Another question: is the Seasteading community going to issue its own currency or use one from other nation?


(noboxes) #9

Unless you have so little taxable income that it’s in a bracket with no taxes levyed. (By “taxable” in this use i mean income recognised as income for tax purposes regardless of brackets.)

Better question: how can a seastead provide you an comfortable and happy life, with the creature comforts and consumeables you expect to have now, but when the IRS visits they cannot find any transactions of value or money or “in kind” which are in a taxable bracket? Keep in mind if you have always-on electricity, the IRS will set a value to the electricity and say that is part of your “income”. You can claim solar free renewable energy, the the facility (otec plant, PV panels, wave motion capture, etc) cost someone money, and it’s in your possession? The floatie you live on has value, and the IRS may pick the highest valuation in usa terms. How does the shared commune deal with this?


#10

Who cares? Register offshore. Done deal.

NO. Bring your own. :blush:

Ha!! According the libertarians aboard, they would love ZERO… Little they know that in reality there will be TAXES for the seastead’s maintenance, etc.

Personally, I see that irrelevant to the cause on a philosophical level :wink:

But there is a seasteading coin in the offering. https://www.blue-frontiers.com/en/tokensale.
You do your own diligence.


(.) #11

Welcome to the Seasteading forum. Thank you for your post.
I hope you will write more.
Best regards;


(Philip Mousley) #12

i used to be a big fan of the Venus Project - however whilst they have some very interesting points about how to plan cities more efficiently and utilization of technology, i think resource based economies will always struggle to find a method of replicating the information that the price of goods contains. The main driving point of RBEs is to eliminate scarcity - however with finite resources there will always be somethings which are scarce. Each person will value various items differently, and price/money encapsulates that information very efficiently.
That is why currently i am drawn to voluntarism/agorism, which can maintain the use of prices but only through voluntary interactions/trades.


(noboxes) #13

I must disagree.

In some states, the school teachers are teaching from books older than they are, because of assigned financial cost of new books.

At the same time, the usa spends $trillions on war equipment, such as carriers that China and Russia have proven they can destroy on first salvo, and a report issued this year by the usa military says the usa has NO aircraft or cruise missile that can be used in a fight against Russia for the first few weeks of a war, because they won’t survive.

I think that finances and capitalism have broken down severely for education and the military in the usa.


(Philip Mousley) #14

I agree with your points, which i think show that when you remove the voluntary aspect of the trading (i.e. taxes spent without public oversight), then the monetary values of products can be highly skewed or warped.


(Chad Elwartowski) #15

You keep using that word but I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Taxes are very anti-capitalist, as is the government.

cap·i·tal·ism
ˈkapədlˌizəm/
noun
an economic and political system in which a country’s trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

As a US citizen who has lived outside the US for the past 5 years I can say that I have had much experience with this. Your income up to $100,000 is not taxed by the US. Over that you pay at the higher income tax rates. If you are in a country where you pay taxes to that country you can deduct earnings from your US taxes. You have to be outside of the US for 330 days out of the year to get this tax rate.
However, capital gains is taxable completely, no matter where you live. This affects bitcoin users because the gains on value of the bitcoins is considered a capital gain. Up to about $418,000 you are taxed at the rate of 15%. Above that it goes to 20%. If you can keep your capital gains under around $35k for the year then you are in the low income bracket and do not have to pay capital gains tax on that gain.

Now, someone on the seastead could just renounce their US citizenship. However you have to pay the exit tax plus if you have any capital that has had gains regardless of whether or not you sold or not you have to pay taxes on those gains as if you had sold it. So, for someone with a large amount of bitcoins it may be better to live a simple lifestyle and only take out $35k per year until the US government collapses. Or earn an income up to $100k on the seastead instead. Another approach is to go through a Charitable Remainder Trust but that requires moving your investments out of your control and trusting someone else with your money, plus the amount you lose to the charity.

The whole point of seasteading is that there will be thousands of different competing systems. I fully expect to see a Venus Project platform floating out there at some point trying to live their utopia with free massages from hot young ladies while be waited on hand and foot by the wait staff for free. Because…Jacque Fresco would have wanted it that way. With no taxes because those people provide those services out of their love of providing services to others all day. Ask any waiter or waitress if they would still work their tiring, thankless shifts if they weren’t getting paid but they have everything provided for them and they would jump at the chance to work the late shift serving customers for no money or tips. Because they love their jobs so much. As a retired software engineer I know that even without a requirement to work I am working 12 hours a day on fixing broken systems run by shitty managers in cramped/cold environments for love of technology. So I can say first hand that if someone isn’t being paid they’ll still do all of the thankless horrible work that everyone does on a daily basis to keep things running.

Oh wait…no, I basically sit around on the beach playing games on my computer and talking with my gf on FB messenger.


#16

Thanks, I believe the US is a quasi-capitalist system since the government sets the interest rate, controls the money supply. The can issue as much currency as they like. They also set policies to influence citizens purchasing behavior, e.g. tax polices such as mortgage deduction, etc.


(.) #17

I agree. And that would not bother me at all. I would probably not dock my boat there,
but who knows. If it works for people, well, good luck to them.