Used car tires and some pioneer spirit

(.) #63

More about seastead designs:

At a very early stage of the discussion about seasteading it was stated that the technology
is there an available to produce large structures to support human life on the water.
These were military, US Navy plans. The military has a bit different purpose than a civilian
seastead, and the funding for it is different too.

In my opinion, those technologies that are suitable for US Navy purposes, might not produce
a civilian libertarian seastead.

In my opinion (again) the civil libertarian seastead is a jigsaw puzzle like of thing.
To put the puzzle pieces together, first have to produce the pieces. Ring weave technology is
probably one piece of this puzzle.

(Gerd Weiland) #64

Dear Larry, unfortunately you seem to be so completely hung up in feelings of personal inadequacy, that you once again, in contrast to spark, completely miss the point old bean-- so once again, please in future try and refrain from interpreting my criticism towards this forums methodology in formulating a realistic and moreover affordable technological basis for future seasteads, as an affront to your personal competence in contributing your undoubtedly equally valuable knowledge towards achieving this goal. Indeed why on earth would you infer that I, by sharing this particular Ring-Weave knowledge, wish to exclude anyone from the benefit thereof? As Spark quite rightly recognized, this novel Upcycle innovation also transforms an expensive waste management problem into a construction material “raw product” for which one can expect a disposal fee compensation per scrap tire. Considering the significant amounts of scrap tires employed in the construction of floating Ring-Weave structures this represents a realistic financial feasibility calculation for those mortals beyond your Nigerian Royalty contacts and their rich associates, who obviously have little empathy for the poor and their grass roots initiatives. A constructive collaboration of knowledge should not suffer the impediment of your fragile ego old chap–There is no form of arrogance nor pomposity intended in my discourse within this forum and I doubt if there be many of its members who would infer this, who have followed my constructive messages therein. As a German national I may express myself in an unusual way in English, yet for which I assumed the content of my message would compensate in full. This interesting decade long experiment you identify with, is still until now in my opinion, unable to provide the conceptual assistance for which it was intended, which is to define the engineering and technological parameters by which offshore seasteading can be actually accomplished. The considerable capital investment wasted in my opinion to those endless cyberspace hypothetical concepts which serve little beyond the creative selfsatisfiction of its creative laptop origins. This dear Larry I consider a pathetic result for the two million $ capital sponsorship provided, which was intended to enable the actual realization of offshore capable seastead habitats and not an entertaining forum to exchange statistical data on Ferro cement constructions in protected waters. Excuse me if I dare mention that I have requested anyone on this forum to provide a more comprehensive basis to achieve this goal than the Ring-Weave Upcycle Technology. Or refute the technological assumptions implied therein. Let alone substitute in any way whatsoever the simple and cheap methodology required to manifest a pilot project Ring Weave Seastead or for that matter any other Seastead concept alternative anywhere in the world. How can anyone justify spending so much money for so little substantial result beyond cyberspace concepts, without asking the question; if after over 10 years of entertaining experimentation with absolutely no conclusive results pertaining to our common offshore seastead objective—is it not time to move on to something more conclusively relevant; sic-- to pose the collective question—Why is the Seastead Institute unable to provide a new democratic platform, upon which we, the seastead people, after all these years of creative experimentation can vote upon to determine the most popular construction methodology by which to manifest a pilot project which may work for all of us–In this context Larry, should the people deem the Ring-Web Technology as the most feasible–I am willing and able in principle to supervise the construction of a pilot project capable of fulfilling this objective—perhaps you would like to organize the necessary crowd funding required in this event, so that we could get to know one another in a different unprejudiced light.

(Larry G) #65


My point is that whether another person chooses to use your ring idea or not is not dependent upon whether they are capable of comprehending it. Different people have different priorities and interests.

Noted: English is not your native language. This does excuse many verbal slips, but I think that English and German are similar enough to understand that point above and that it is not necessarily capacity to comprehend that drives differences in approach.

If I had been gifted millions of dollars to develop Seasteading, I would almost certainly have done things differently. Alas, I was not consulted on the disposal of TSI funds.


A seastead construction method shouldn’t be based on a “popularity contest democratic platform”, but rather on a proven marine engineering boat building technology, IMHO.

If so, ferrocement or steel reinforced concrete boat building method seems to be by far the best (and already tested-proven) choice for seasteading needs.

(.) #67

Well, it is just a cultural difference.
Providing useful information is a common denominator.
So TSI is just what it is a public relations forum.
Blue Frontiers is builder. Some money goes to Blue Frontiers and they take consensus from those
who provide the money.

Ideas are value also. Some will appreciate the values of ideas some will not.
Who will float? The ocean will tell.

I think, these technical know-hows are valuable informations for me.
I hope TSI and Blue Frontiers are doing well. I have not been hired by either, and I do not think I
could participate. I participate on the TSI discussion forum.

I try to bring value to TSI by publishing some ideas on this forum. Others do it willingly, knowingly,
unwillingly and unknowingly.

I think value is a value, and the ring weaving technology is a value to me. Thank you.

(Gerd Weiland) #68

Dear larry, since the Ring Weave principle, as i have explained in word and photografic evidence, can be understood and reproduced by even children with little or no formal education and represents perhaps the most simple viable engineering concept available to our learned forum, this issue was never of importance to me. The priorities on the basis of a mutual interest, sic; the definition of a viable seastead concept how ever, as i have elluded too in my last comment, is indeed in my opinion the most important topic today, which after over 10 years of extensive discussion absolutly needs to be addressed by all involved. Of cource we all have different opinions on this subject but to what avail? Is the TSI just a pretty cyberspace forum to exibit our subjective visions of an independent future, without a democratic framework to establish a concensual judgement on the subject after hundreds of submissions. Certainly if you or any of the forums participants had any say in the way the TSI is using the financial sponsership available i am quite sure we would all enjoy far more collective results than the dubious rewards offered by Blue frontiers in far off pacific islands.

(Gerd Weiland) #69

Dear Sir, indeed as you stated there is proven marine engineering data concerning the boat building technology of today using ferrocement (steel reinforced concrete). This data however has very little to do with the structural requirements of large concrete floating structures in a dynamic fluid environment. The ferrocement designs promoted by TSI have only been subjected to a sheltered water environment as dipicted on their web-site. There is no “test proven” ferrocement seastead designs that have ever been comprehensivly tested in an offshore environment. Those Blue Frontier designs do not in any way fullfill the requirements of the seastead movement unless of cource you reduce marine technology to the leval of a smooth water house boat. Democratic participation in an issue of such significance as the seastead movement is not akin to a popularity contest in a TV show–but rather a check and balance to a tyranny of influence and power. I protest the imposition of inadequate marine engineering criteria by the TSI. An unregulated product promotion which does not adhere to the basic requirements of offshore seastead design.

(Matias Volco) #70


Why concrete?

Compared to a steel hull, pre-stressed concrete offers some distinct advantages for offshore production vessels in a fixed location:

  • simple hull structural design, which easily satisfies all design requirements and supports large topsides weight
  • long tradition of concrete as a construction material for marine environment with design and construction techniques well established
  • reinforced concrete is fatigue resistant and durable. This, combined with the simple structural design of the hull, makes inspection and maintenance easy
  • a concrete hull is stiffer than an equivalent steel hull
  • the sides of a concrete hull are able to withstand without damage significant impact loads from supply boats
    concrete structures have better fire resistance than steel structures, which is of major importance for an oil production vessel.
    1995 Offshore Mag

Now imagine a composite material system that doesn’t exclude upcycling, but is not limited to it either

(Gerd Weiland) #71

Dear matias, Why expensive solid concrete indeed, when there is a cheap flexible marine technology that out performs every offshore ridged alternative. (see previous mails)
Ring-Web Upcycle Islands made of scrap tires can be extended indefinatly (at any time even offshore) in any two or three dimensions. Total-Flexibility is the key to structural integrity and represents a paradigmen shift in marine engineering. The outer rim serving as a wave dampening rubber reef which is impervious to impact loads and will provide a simple mechanical hydrolic energy resource. The platform center is very stable and only moves vertically up and down and can be extended downwards under water to accomodate any top load required. There is no hull to maintain and prevent leakage because a Ring-Web platform need not be water tight and serves only to contain the content used to dissplace the water therein… There is no material fatigue because each Ring-Web floating platform is a homogene structure which collectivly displaces energy overall. I suggest you practice the Ring Weave by yourself using old bicycle inner tubes cut into slices with a pair of sicsores 1 to 4. Then consult the diagrams and photos i submitted to the forum, and Ring-Weave on.


There are hundreds of ferrocement boats out there built in the 70’s still circumnavigating the globe. And that’s a FACT.

If that’s not “test proven” or “comprehensively tested in an offshore environment” I don’t know what else it is,…

I haven’t seen any final design from Blue Frontier yet. Did you?

Now you are talking politics not seastead design. Lets not mix those two. They are not compatible,…

Protest as you want. I’ve been here since TSI’s inception and I’ve never seen or heard of ANY “imposition” of ANY “criteria” by the TSI during all those years.

You are spreading A LOTS OF BS and FAKE NEWS, dude,…

(Kim Cowdroy) #73


Thanks for the ideas.

I cannot quite see the detail of what is envisaged so I have a few questions.

  1. I am assuming a single layer of cubes lashed together to form an island as the base design. Is this right?

  2. Are the cubes then tightly lashed together with rope say, so they rub together, or loosely tied together to allow movement or maybe a spacer between like a full tire.

  3. I assume some lightweight buildings would be erected on top. But with the movement of the cubes up and down and out of synch, how does the base of the buildings remain intact? Are they on multidirectional wheels with large springs in stilts to hold them up say? Then gangplanks between the buildings?

  4. I assume the cubes as indicated would fill with water and sit low in the water. Would some lightweight buoyancy be placed inside so they sit higher and can take greater load? eg expanded polystyrene foam or polyurethane foam.

  5. Given the tires are free or better, I imagine the costs include transportation (from tire dump to port, from port to ocean site), constructing the cubes, installing ie lashing them together out there, and there is some mooring or stationary keeping of some description.

  6. Do you see an automated process of constructing the cubes. I would think you would want a device to cut the tire walls off before leaving the tire dump for instance.

Anyway just trying to get a clearer picture.

(Matias Volco) #74

Rubber tires are used all the times in the largest ports and smallest moorings, bumpers and lines - however this rubber raft is definitely interesting, it reminds me of the OBA Buoyancy Injector

(.) #75

I think the next step for me is kelp harvest. The possibility and existence of these other technologies
are nice and good. It makes the next step more desirable.

Kelp harvest is legal without a license in California, but it is limited to 10 lb (approx 5 kg)
per person per day. This makes experimentation possible. I did experiment.
I got kelp, I dried the kelp. It is hard when it is dry. I tried to grind it before drying it. I used a
meat grinder. It worked. Next step would be to dry the ground kelp. Kelp dries slow.
Ground kelp drys slow. Ungrounded kelp drys slow too.
Kelp drys to the weight ratio 1 to 10, 1 unit of dry kelp can be made from 10 units of wet kelp.
The transportation of wet kelp might be prohibitive because of cost.

A floating structure might be a solution to use it for activities to grind kelp and to dry the kelp.
It would be good to float the structure at the location of the kelp harvest.

This floating structure, for me, first is going to be a boat.
That is the next step I am working on: kelp harvest.

To grind kelp is solved: solar panels on boat, conversion of 12V DC to 120 V AC, and using
a commercial meat grinder to grind kelp.

The next step, for me, is to get ground and wet kelp into a block shape and dry it.
The kelp block has to be the weight and size for easy manipulation in the boat during open
ocean conditions.

After that I am planning to find a buyer for the product, get a kelp harvesting license in California.
And keep up with the required administration of harvest and sales.

And there is more. And there are lots of variables. Ring weave technology opens up more variables.

(Gerd Weiland) #76

Dear “dude” , a ferro cement boat wether 70 years old or even older is NOT and never will be by definition a seastead platform and your comment therefor somewhat redundent. The Blue Water designs wether final or not, are portrayed on the TSI website as a reference to future developments endorced by the TSI as the best seastead sollution to date. Which in my opinion is a completly unqualified analysis, as i have allready stated. Your reference to direct democratic self representation and shared collective decision making within the seastead movement is Not in any way restricted to your political interpretation “dude” nor incompatible with a healthy future seastead community. To the contrary a democratic and cooperative approach to every aspect of seastead design and implimentation i believe is the prerequisit for any floating offshore social structure. Unless of cource you measure this evolution through such hollywood images portrayed in the film “Water World”. Perhaps “dude” you should enjoy a medetative moment Ring Weaving something a little more constructive than your obviously emotional and unqualified B S and FAKE NEWS remarks which do little to clarify the subject which it seems you have yet, despite those many years since the TSI inception, failed to understand.

(Gerd Weiland) #77

Dear Kim–thank you for your constructive reply; Answer to (1)–The Ring-Web “cube” examples portrayed are only representative of the Ring-Weave principle and do not represent the construction methodology used to build offshore seasteads. This Ring-Web modular system is a specific design which can be employed to construct geometrical bodies of any shape or size. The construction sequence as portrayed in a 6 sided cube form consists of 8 Ring Woven Rubber Bands in each segment which are then interconnected with each other through 12 connecting rods. When employing the steel reinforced tire treads of scrap tires as the rubber bands each cube will represent aprox 1 cubic yard of displacement which can be tightly filled with indestructible PET plastic bottles. Such constructions whilst virtually indestructible are more suited for sheltered waters if used as floatation bodies. The multi functional applications however extend way beyond this realm, and only limited by the tensile strength of the connecting rods. (2) The offshore seastead design is a different Ring weave variation which does not require any connectors to define the hollow bodies of any shape or size and therefor does not require any sort of lashing together as the vollume may increase. The Ring-Web principle is the same. (3) I have supervised the construction of light weight 30ft diameter 10ft high domes made of flexible interwoven PVC piping and covered with used Dacron sails which provided adequate housing for us seastead pioneers developing more permanent housing through learning by doing something akin to the Real-Deal beyond typing a keyboard and dreaming. All habitation is connected onto the Ring Weave floating platform upper surface as dipicted on the photografic doccumentation i have allready presented to this forum. These homogenous flexible steel reinforced rubber constructions will absorb all dynamic wave action around the perimeter and be increasingly more stable towards the center. The center of any Ring-Web island platform is proportionatly stable to the surface area employed and only vertical movement is experienced. (4) We have tightly inserted Upcycled PET plastic bottles into a variety of Ring-Web hollow constructions to enable adequate water displacement. ( 2/3 above water) There is little or no plastic degregation because of no sunlight inside. The PET bottles themselves are incredibly strong individual floatation chambers. Why not combine the seastead adventure with cleaning up floating plastic beach/offshore refuse to use as floatation displacement—and earn some positive PR ?
(5) A buisness plan with the local waste management authorities will conclusivly indicate a win win situation between the seastead pioneer and the municipality involved, which will at the very least provide free transport of the “raw product” scrap tires to an on/off shore construction location. The construction methodology can be adapted to any combination of a wet or dry construction base depending on the Ring-Web design and or configeration. However given a well worked out municiple cooperation this novel Upcycle Seastead concept can easily finance itself and provide the seastead movement with positive PR.
(6) As i allready stated all you need is a carpet knife to seperate the scrap tire side walls from the tread, which indeed if conducted in the dump site itself would be a logistical advantage–there are side wall removers for used tires allready on the market for a few thousand bucks–i would rather pay some other seastead pioneer friends a decent wage to do this dirty job by hand.(50 scrap tires per hour) I do hope you are inspired to share this valuable free knowledge as i have done, to help those empty pocket rebel souls also live our seastead dream rather than use the Ring Weave Know-How as a key to personal profit.

(Matias Volco) #78

Why not aim at zero degradation over many centuries and “bury” those materials in something that simulates soil or rock?. What you refer to as rigid (implying it’s brittle).

(.) #79

The technology is probably going to be evolving. After a basic development there could be
so much new stuff, that the old one would be disposed even if it is perfectly fine.
Just like a DOS based IBM PC would be nowadays. (not to mention Windows XP).

(Kim Cowdroy) #80

Gerd, Thankyou for your detailed reply.

I can see how rectangular prisms of varying lengths, width and height would be made using this method. Each such module could be quite large, though there would be practical limits to be applied. And real estate I think is most likely restricted to be one on each module, rather than across modules.

I should have thought of filling them with PET Plastic bottles (as in Richard Sowa islands), though the government here has just put a price on these by way of a refund.

I would think that to create a large island that could be sufficiently resilient in the open ocean, there would be big modules which would be tightly lashed together along a common vertical wall. The lashing would be tire strips that thread between the tires to hold two rods tight together. Assuming a new module floated out would already be filled with PET bottles, I can see that the edges of the modules can be tightly lashed together but not the inside of the vertical walls. This is not likely to be sufficient.

There are three ways I can see to get around this. One is to put one metre cubes between the two vertical walls and lash these to both walls, and probably to each other. Put the PET bottles into the cube after the lower sections are lashed, connect the top and then also lash the top horizontal edges. Even with the cube empty, the vertical walls may need pushing apart while lowering each cube down into position.

The point is an island could be built up in a modular fashion. The highest modules in the middle and gradually lowering to the outside.

If the waves mostly come from one direction. then have smaller modules on the outside facing the waves, with loose coupling between them so they dissipate the waves without affecting movement of the middle of the island so acting as a breakwater (I think you said this). These modules would be unsuitable for walking on normally due to the instability.

On the leeward side of the island, the modules would be tightly lashed together, and eventually forming a bay for boats possibly. Being solid together, people can walk between the modules and down to the boats. Also on the tightly lashed together modules, soil and plants besides the lightweight buildings and pathways could be covered on top.

Between the modules, mooring lines could be placed. If cubes used between the walls then leave a one metre square hole say between each as required. In keeping with the theme, the mooring lines would be made of tire strips connected together (as proposed by Spark).

I think the point is: Although lots of work would be required, there is certainly plenty of potential in this!

(Kim Cowdroy) #81

A problem with trying to make it all modular in the sense of joining them together, is that I would imagine it would be difficult to have vertical walls that are straight between the corners. While extending out a cube in three faces would technically make it a rectangular prism, I would think they would tend to look more like a blob as they get bigger, even though they still have eight corners. Perhaps using interconnected strips of tires internally to pull the walls closer together, especially at the bottom, is possible. Longer length connections at the top could be used to fill in between the modules, particularly near the corners. Any connections, and the less vertically, would allow movement between the modules, though it could all still be made fairly rigid I would think.

Another issue is how do you class this “vessel”. And what would you even call it - a growing floating island? Or do you not bother having it flagged? And just construct at sea, with no registration or insurance? But it would need to have all the PET bottles put in and the top closed off before launching. Maybe registered individually as barges?

Just some further thoughts.

(.) #82

I think, ring weaving has a high quality of complexity.
With a few basic components and methods many different things can be built.