The New Age of Sail

(Matias Volco) #61

Sometimes extreme examples are useful to illustrate a tendency, or just a make a point. Like jewelry could be passed within a family from one generation to another in case it was needed to buy personal freedom or life, but hoping never that to be the case, enjoyed in the meantime, or used for ambition rather than desperation.

As was saying in the opening post, sailboats might make sense for a single-time escape like Orlov proposes, but they have many shortcomings, like maintenance and laborious building, which would in time emulate the same sorry situation as the Easter Islanders’ having exhausted and lost (chicken-egg) both the raw materials and kniow how to make trans-oceanic Polynesian rafts.

A floating base of some kind would provide a solution for those shortcomings and a way to continue life and thrive during peaceful and interesting times.

The simplest design that comes to mind is the ocean sphere you proposed combined with some docking element. O----

Another design could be just a dock, which we call the ramform island.

a combination of the two, and the repetition of those clusters, could create an ocean support network.


Vincent Cate also tested several versions of the floating ball/barrel approach, together with the approach of the Proteus’s many-leg approach (unpowered, but i think he towed one). I believe the videos are on youtube. Considering that almost no one here wants such a tall approach, you could always saw the legs off until you are low enough to be comfortably bashed by the waves. Vincent’s approach was springiness (not fighting to keep the floatie balls in one certain place), distributed loading (many descrete floaties), and wide beam (in all directions). I believe he was onto something important.

(Matias Volco) #63

but his balls were not sufficiently submerged, nor big enough


Well, yea, but that’s what people seem to want. You could always replicate his test, with more weight to press them down more, at the risk of not being able to come back up.

(Matias Volco) #65

I tend to think of the underwater sphere as a more sophisticated approach than the massive ramform, oops, boomerang island - let’s go step by step

(system) #66

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(Larry G) #67

(Tom Schaefer) #69

I’ve been a prepper for over a decade (humorous note: I am one of two people who have a functional hand well pump in my county, despite >5,000 Amish living there who prefer to use gas pumps).

Mr. Orlov refers to “Total Collapse”. In my estimation, that means multiple decades to re-develop the industrial infrastructure necessary to build multiple components of the sailboat or ramform necessary for continued habitation. I predict the residents would stay aboard for 6 to 24 months before the combination of failures would force evacuation to land, and they would settle into more or less primitive isolated tribal life or be absorbed by the local population.

I, and I believe most preppers, believe a collapse will be partial and temporary, with >90% of current population and industry being killed (dysentery, cholera for lack of clean water sources and radiation from Fukashima’d failed nuclear fuel cooling ponds). In this scenario, things could return to relative normal in less than a decade or so. In either case, until a seastead can be fully self-sufficient (not dependent in any way upon land based industry), I don’t think the ocean is a viable long-term redoubt.

(Bob LLewellyn) #70

That’s interesting, where are you from?
The problem with hand pumps is that they will only pull up to 25 feet. Water at 25 feet has toxins in most parts of the world. Deeper waters are cleaner but had to get to. The pump has to be put at the bottom and pump the water upwards. However, in Nicaragua I learned of another way to pump water from below 25 feet.

Using a 6 in wide well casing have two 2" pipes parallel to each other and connected at the end with a U shaped connector pips. (Look under your sink at the drain) There is an opening in the water tube at the bottom just above the connector pips and at the top using T joints. The opening at the top would also have a short pipe coming out at a 90 degree angle. The pipes have a long rope going down the feed line and through the u shape and up the water line.

The rope has bells on it every10 inches or so. The rope passes through the bell and out the top where the clapper should be. The bells fit the lines so they don’t quite hit the edges but pretty darn close. The rope has knots tied to keep the bells from sliding down. The bells are pulled through the line. The water comes in at the bottom and a bell comes from below and pushes the water up the water line with it.

At the top, the water is free to run out the T with the short pip connected to it. The water then flows into a catch basin for ready use. There is a hand crank on the top with a wheel that pulls the rope with the bells up from the water line and feeds it down through the feed line to start the trip all over again. The one I used drew water from a 60 foot well, but I have been told that they have used this type of hand pump for wells over 100 ft deep.

Of course desalinating sea water is a lot easier. And in case of a nuclear blow out, the only safe place to be will be at sea. We can grow our own crops, hydroponically of course. Raise fish and algae. With just a little infrastructure, we can get along nicely without land. That said, trade makes the living better so I hope all you preppies are wrong.

(Tom Schaefer) #71

Our hand well pump takes ~3 minutes of .5 Hz priming (a good arm workout) but it pulls water from ~100 ft. Water that our city fluoride friends have described as heavenly, and they can’t believe we get to shower in it.

We preppers here have been been wrong since 2007, and lets hope we continue to be wrong. BTW, it doesn’t take a full scale exchange of weapons to cause the cooling ponds to dry up. Just two weeks and the diesel back up power to the pumps will run out of fuel and as Burke says in “Aliens” Adios Muchachos. A one weapon EMP attack will cause that.( ) . We have a passive system that will go for 18 months at our local reactor, but it is among the few.

(Matias Volco) #73

Or the opposite may happen, when systems work too well, some may opt for an alternative civilization, or for the first time be able to.

(.) #74

The opt for an alternative civilization is definitely there, in my opinion.
As far as the grid goes: they can switch it off. I will be fine.

I moved in a place in may (it is new to me), and I had to get electricity connected.
I had a bit of problem communicating with the representative of the electric company
on the phone. One of my thought was, it is OK, I can get along without them.
I started to think about the alternatives, and the alternatives seem doable. Things worked out,
and I have electricity, and I am still planning to build the alternative too. May be, I am a prepper.

(Tom Schaefer) #75

I guess you didn’t get my point. If the grid shuts down, there will be ~100 Fukashimas around the USA within two weeks. You, and everyone else (read almost everyone including you) down wind of any of these will be anything but “fine” in the following months

(.) #76

I did not cause it, I cannot stop it, I cannot control it.

(Bob LLewellyn) #77

Laws of physics dictate that water can not be drawn up more than 25 feet, using a vacuum. Hand pumps create a vacuum in the pipe which is filled by water. However, a 100% vacuum can only lift so much weight and 25 feet is all the weight it can pull. So a standard hand pump can not pump 100 ft. It’s a physical impossibility. Is your pump maybe some type of injection pump?

Also I grew up with Amish so I was interested in where you live.

(Larry G) #78

Note: it is FuKUshima, and the native pronunciation puts the emphasis on the second syllable.

If everyone responsible for and able to maintain them died unexpectedly within those two weeks, perhaps.

Fukushima was a confluence of events- aged infrastructure design (check, the USA and Europe have that problem too), an earthquake, a tsunami, and lack of well-maintained backup generation.

Most nuclear reactors around the world are not subject to that combination. Shutting down the reactors in an orderly fashion only takes a few hours and keeping them cool until they are no longer dangerous a few days. Emergency shutdowns can put them in a safe condition faster and more permanently (much more cost to re-start).

Nuclear power has a better safety record than other forms of power, and far less ecological footprint.

The “grid” (which I happen to work on) is a complicated topic.

(.) #79

No nukes for spark. I do not want any reactors. Disassembly would be best.

(Tom Schaefer) #80

Hi Bob,

is our pump. It works great to draw water from 100 ft. The water is a little muddy for the first minute, but as good as water from our electric pump that is in-line less than two inches from it. It is a water lifter, using a foot valve, not a vacuum sucker.

I live in St. Mary’s County MD. Calvert Cliffs is our local nuke plant with the passive cooling pond rated for 18 months.

(Bob LLewellyn) #81

:grinning: why would you think that? Nuclear reactors are taken off line all the time. The fuel rods don’t last forever and have to be replaced. Plants have to be shut down to do that. Power plants are pretty safe, it took a 8+ earth quake to damage the plants so that radiation could leak out. If a missile hits the plant, then you have a argument but barring that, I can not see any way for your concerns to be actualized.

Even the Japanese nuclear disaster didn’t kill any one, the one in Russia did but we don’t hear about any major die offs. This is only to help you relax a little, things aren’t as bad as we fear. You might want to check these states out.

(Tom Schaefer) #82

Cooling ponds for the spent fuel Bob, not the reactor itself. The casualties from Fukashima and the radio isotopes on land an in the ocean are not easily counted and pulled out of the background mortality data. I’m hoping for the best, but watching the data.