The New Age of Sail


#5

A quote from the article says “A 1000-ton test boat, built out of normal ice on a lake in the Rockies, lasted a whole summer”.

So it might be possible.


#6

Another thing is they probably didn’t make the ice boat out of sea water. I’m sure they used fresh water which wouldn’t last very long but it would have been interesting to see it with a refrigeration unit.


#7

LOL, what does this imaginary icestead has to do with the topic at hand?

[quote=“Matias, post:1, topic:1221”]
If our common goal is to engineer an “opt out” from the existing states which have encroached all dry land and all protected bays, we need a further solution:

A floating place to dock sailboats, maintain them, store and trade supplies and even house people who would not be safe in a sailboat.
[/quote]Maybe so, but to what degree? I mean, how much space do you allocate on that particular design for the marina and ancillary businesses? How do you get to that number?

I’ve seen a lot of marinas, built brand new with 400 slips projected full occupancy and financed as such but when operated they never made it over 100 -150 occupied slips. Since they couldn’t pay the mortgage on that, they had to close…

If you built this to start with

which seems to be designed to accommodate around 30 sailboats but you’ll get only 10 (in and out or on a regular bases) you did overbuild the whole seastead…Now you are stuck with the price of maintaining a big structure without generating the actual income to do so. How are you gonna make it?


(.) #8

Yes, there have been ideas like that:

I prefer to live in warm conditions. The constant cooling requires constant energy input.

I vote for acretion of biorock and / or ferrocement.


(.) #9

I see a stability problem once the ice start melting.
This can be observed how icbergs behave in seawater.
The immersed part of the ice berg starts melting and the ice berg looses
something like the keel ballast and capsizes. Capsizing continues until
The iceberg melts. When the cooling of the ice berg fails that leads to bigger problems.


(Matias Volco) #10

Yes, an iceberg is a natural floating island, great to draw inspiration from (or if you figure it out, just make it out of ice :slight_smile: )
The point of this thread however is not technical or design-oriented but more political-logistical-infrastructure oriented:
Assuming we are familiar with the Libertarian and O’ist very valid concerns, and that we have further listened to and read Dmitry Orlov’s admonitions, it becomes difficult to find other alternatives to the sailboat in personal freedom, life (and some sort of property) is what we’re trying to safeguard under all conceivable circumstances.

I-m sure it’s not the only way.

A (or many) floating island is what I propose as a base to counteract/complement all the disadvantages of a saiboat and perpertuate life, freedom and property (spare parts, freshwater, art, animals and computers) under or after the worst circumstances.


(Matias Volco) #11

Thanks for returning to topic @Octavian
How do I get to what number? The beauty of the ramform is that it can grow as market dictates, but in any case this thread is a mental exercise to explore a “prepper” base to give some reprieve to sailboats in a dystopian future Mr Sunshine Orlov describes.

I’ve only shown two models of the floating ramform island and you’ve called both very big. One because I called it a private residence but looks like can accomodate four sailboats (I contend only two safely, the rest are guest spaces during good weather on account of its thin arms)

I can imagine 20 people living comfortably in this set up


This could be the natural evolution of the first ramform. At this stage I picture I believe no more than 40 40 foot sailboats could dock comfortably, but then of course we need to leave some coastline space open for other activities such as maintenance, refueling station, launching pad or beach, whatever the circumstances and market dictate.
In a dystopian world this would be some very ambitious prepper’s liar, or a large cohesive community.
I can imabgine 150/200 people living here, about the same size a Mennonite community mushrooms to before splitting in two.


#12

Matias,

Thanks for the link to:

The New Age of Sail by Dmitry Orlov

That’s an interesting read. I’m not sure how imminent a global/continental disaster really is, but many of his design ideas are worth considering, as is his focus on keeping things simple, since simple is usually more robust. One thing I question is how sensible it really is to insist on using only wood/non-industrial/early-industrial materials.

Unless there’s a disaster such that we’d be unable to scavange/recycle/repurpose land or littoral materials, I don’t think it’s sensible to forgo using modern metals (like stainless steel) and even glass fiber and some thermoplastics. There are huge amounts of these materials that IMHO would be quite scavengable/recyclable – and very, very useful in designing seasteads or other long-term-livable ocean-going things.


(Matias Volco) #13

@LarryP I don’t believe continental or global disaster is imminent, unavoidable or irreversible, nor do I believe the mythology that surrounds the prepper movement; but I am extremely interested in that movement because I believe it’s very symptomatic of the unsolved challenges of the industrialized globalized World.
Rather than Freedom I prefer the word Sovereignty as in self-ownership.
A floating island, or underwater habitat, could be enjoyed and be profitable during peaceful times, and a lifesaver during interesting times - or towed/drifted to a less interesting location.

It is one of the few antidotes of privacy in the age of publicity.


Wood is probably the worst material I can think of for large scale “opt-out” vehicles such as a Ramform Island.

In the spirit of simplicity, the most widely used material in the World should be used. Probably a composite material that includes a part of recycled fibers and a part of pulverized glass as artificial sand could make sense in the long run.
@ellmer any comment?

A procreative flating island could travel highly populated coastlines in search for crashed glass and plastic. plastic bottles for richie sowa mangrove islands or buoyancy injectors would be paid prime.


(Matias Volco) #14

@LarryP I don’t believe continental or global disaster is imminent, unavoidable or irreversible, nor do I believe the mythology that surrounds the prepper movement; but I am extremely interested in that movement because I believe it’s very symptomatic of the unsolved challenges of the industrialized globalized World.
Rather than Freedom I prefer the word Sovereignty.
A floating island, or underwater habitat, could be enjoyed and be profitable during peaceful times, and a lifesaver during interesting times - or towed/drifted to a less interesting location.

It is one of the few antidotes of privacy in the age of publicity.


Wood is probably the worst material I can think of for large scale “opt-out” vehicles such as a Ramform Island.

In the spirit of simplicity, the most widely used material in the World should be used. Probably a composite material that includes a part of recycled fibers and a part of pulverized glass as artificial sand would make sense.

A procreative flating island could travel highly populated coastlines in search for refuse glass and plastic. plastic bottles for richie sowa islands or buoyancy injectors would be paid prime


#15

What bases? I thought they all floated?


#16

Funny thing: you can’t make ice “out of” sea water. When ice forms, it naturally pushes the salt out. If you beached an ice berg and rinsed it with fresh water, you could drink the rest of the berg without desalinating it. So it doesn’t matter if they started building the boat with fresh water.


#17

I think the first good broadside wave will break up the boat.


(Matias Volco) #18

if you want to discuss the merits of the ramform and of your flawless orthography you may continue enlightening us in your favorite thread as you do on a regular basis. This one is to explore an opt-out from land governments and the floating support network that would be needed.


#19

I’m not sure that’s quite the right criteria for material selection. IMHO, the most widely used material is very probably concrete, on a mass/time basis, if not a cost/time global basis. Concrete is useful, but other very common materials (wood, paper, cardboard) are certainly common, but IMHO less useful for building seasteads. Glass is another material that’s very cheap, but is only usable as a filler, unless its in fiber form, so far as I know.

One of the things I’ve been thinking about is how well one could waterproof concrete, by coating it with a thermoplastic that could stretch enough to maintain waterproofing in the presence of modest cracking. The various flavors of polyethelene are available as recycled materials (cheap) and can be reprocessed/remelted, albeit with some degradation of the polymer chains, probably not critical if handled with reasonable care.


(Matias Volco) #20

Well everybody can, with some work, build their own sailboat out of any creative materials/or buy second hand, most of the work will go to maintenance anyhow.

I propose a very solid base(s) to create a support network for vessels that might not want to touch land for X reason but still need refueling, maintenance, or a storage room. For that probably floating concrete like we see in most marinas nowadays, and in a larger scale in breakwaters and barges, appears to be viable and durable.

It is what the Seasteading Institute has chosen in the form of concrete boxes, and there’s a member in this forum that appears to have a very promising floating concrete construction technique that affords more plastic designs than a caisson.


#21

So where do I begin. I think that technology is important to what and where a seastead can be placed. How would one build a marina in open water with huge swells and waves, at least a ice dish would create calm water to dock in.

Without something to create calm water than the options for placing a marina are extremely limited to the point that a prick coast guard ship can easily pull up and ruin everyone’s day.

If seawater is frozen from the outside-in like when ice cubes and molds are made than it does trap some minerals in it of which the ocean has many and gives ice interesting properties. It’s not about the salt.

The world I live in nothing is impossible until absolutely proven. Maybe it might take insulated panels set up in a form with tubes run through like rebar is with concrete to create a ice reinforced structure. What matters is the cost to make the insulated panels, refrigeration plant and wave energy device to power it vs other options.

As a final note it doesn’t mean anyone will make anything out of ice but options are always good.


(Matias Volco) #22

With two floating breakwaters linked by a bow.

I like ice, it’s naturally occurring and perhaps it can be manipulated to create protected harbors. Perhaps a good option for Arctic Seasteading? The architecture would be fantastic since it would benefit from big glass domes.


#23

I understand but can floating breakwaters stop swells? I can’t seem to find info on that.


#24

IMHO, that’s not really the relevant question. Instead, I’ve been trying to understand a related question:

What is the cost per linear meter to build and moor a floating breakwater (or breakwaters in rows) to attenuate dangerous (e.g. Hurricane-driven) waves sufficiently that the protected boats/craft/floaties don’t themselves have to be individually storm-wave-safe?

So far, I’m seriously dubious that floating breakwaters (and the required mooring to keep them on station) will work well enough to provide meaningful protection against heavy seas. Please feel free to post info (either way) in the breakwater thread.