The economic realities and practicability shape the concept of freedom of the oceans - not legal hairsplitting - not gunboat politics | oceanic business alliance


(Wilfried Ellmer) #1

Continuing the discussion from The ugly4 definition:


The ugly4 / what can i do at sea not on land / no need of international waters / tolerance is not lawless /


To understand what is going on follow the money



Nobody can step out of “good trade customs and neighborship behavior” anymore in a rabiatic xenofobic nationalistic attack - it is simply NOT CONVENIENT…this is what shapes the real law of the seas


Gunboat politics moving to the trash basket of history…

What is upcomming

What is falling apart



Islands Security
The road problem | oceanic business alliance
The road problem | oceanic business alliance
The road problem | oceanic business alliance
The road problem | oceanic business alliance
Do we need any rules on a seastead - why not simply direct democracy
The economic size and standing matters
Is this atoll in any EEZ?
Is this atoll in any EEZ?
The economic size and standing matters
The first seastead will not be a libertarian utopia, it probably won't be libertarian at all
Tolerance is not lawlessness the law of the seas is about good trade and visitor treatment customs, convenient for every nation
Creating a legal jurisdiction on former water territories
Tolerance is not lawlessness the law of the seas is about good trade and visitor treatment customs, convenient for every nation
The economic size and standing matters
The economic size and standing matters
Is this atoll in any EEZ?
Tolerance is not lawlessness the law of the seas is about good trade and visitor treatment customs, convenient for every nation
Flag pirate vessel thing postulate | oceanic business alliance
Violence in international politics is still a strong kung fu - doubth that - oceanic business alliance
What can i do at sea i can not do in my house?
Oceanic Data Centers • Oceanic Business Alliance
Is the freedom of the ocean divided in zones ? - not really
Is 45% the earth's surface a state-free society of emergent law?
I think nations will invest in Seasteading
Is 45% the earth's surface a state-free society of emergent law?
Is 45% the earth's surface a state-free society of emergent law?
Is 45% the earth's surface a state-free society of emergent law?
Seasteading needs to be inside human base ethics
Marinea the project
Mauritius vs UK over Chagos Bank and Archipelago
Proposed Alternate Location for Marinea
Awareness what is out there already | oceanic business alliance
Awareness what is out there already | oceanic business alliance
Awareness what is out there already | oceanic business alliance
Kerry to confront China on Spratly Islands
A Constitution for Seasteads: The Las Portadas Investment Culture
Corporate settlements in the United States - The criminalisation of American business - ocean colonization as solution | oceanic business alliance
Flag pirate vessel thing postulate | oceanic business alliance
Register a seastead as a ship may not be completly convenient
Register a seastead as a ship may not be completly convenient
Flag pirate vessel thing postulate | oceanic business alliance
Flag pirate vessel thing postulate | oceanic business alliance
Flag pirate vessel thing postulate | oceanic business alliance
Flag pirate vessel thing postulate | oceanic business alliance
Flag pirate vessel thing postulate | oceanic business alliance
Liberland - The newest libertarian country
Liberland - The newest libertarian country
The first seastead will not be a libertarian utopia, it probably won't be libertarian at all
The first seastead will not be a libertarian utopia, it probably won't be libertarian at all
The ugly4 definition - oceanic freedom - with footnote
Host Country interference level | Cartagena | Colombia | oceanic business alliance
(Wilfried Ellmer) #2

Practicability shapes the customary law of the seas


  • Law regulating entities out of jurisdiction is worth nothing in practice…
  • law going beyond the customary law of the seas is worth nothing in practice…

At sea nobody gives actually a dime what exactly the “local national peddling detail rulebook might say or not say” because “peddling rules beyond the customary” can not be enforced in practice.


Foreign ships can not be expected neither to understand the language nor the local rules and even worse they are “out of jurisdiction by default” anyhow under the law of the seas as they count as territory of their flag state.


As always local authorities and buerocrats can write this simple fact of practical life in quite long and impressive legal chapters, that are nothing more then dead text, nobody really cares about, and nobody needs to care about, as it can not be enforced in practice, anyhow without disturbing the freedom of the oceans, what would be bad for business.


This is the difference between “pretention of the local authorities” and "customary marine law of the seas everybody acts along in practice ".


In marine business you do not care much about “national legislations” you care about the “agressiveness of the enforcement practice” which is quite different. It is obvious that the enforcement practice can not be agressive as this would shu away the ships what is bad for business.


When you sit on a Cruise ship crossing from EEZ to EEZ…


In a very practical manner when you sit on a cruiseship you do not ask in which countries zone we are today - what might be their rules on gambling? Do i commit fellony when going to the casino?. You do not care, you do not have to.



All National Law Pretending to Regulate the Ocean is Dead Law by Default | oceanic business alliance
(Jonas Smith) #3

That was stupid when it was said before, and it is still stupid. You are a customer. When I go into a bar I don’t have to worry that the owner has a valid liquor license. When I get into a taxi I don’t have to worry if the driver has a valid operating license.

But you can be DAMN sure that the company and crew who operate that cruise ship know DAMN well what zone they are in at any given moment, and what local laws and regulations they have to follow…and they will enforce them as strongly as possible.


Can a libertarian paradise exist if flagged as a ship of a country
(Wilfried Ellmer) #4

It is not “the owner of the ship” who protects you, it is the “law of the seas” that takes you out of jurisdiction…this is what the flag of the ship is for is in first place - telling every enforcer aproaching with a nationalistic, xenofobic, and stupid actitude “hey stupid i am out of your jurisdiction”… :relaxed: this is what the law of the seas is about in its practial core. Taxis do not have flags of convenience and count as foreign territory the last time i looked…


(Jonas Smith) #5

I didn’t say the owner protects you. I said the owner knows what legal zone you are in and what rules/regulations apply so you don’t have to worry about it. As a customer you are paying so you don’t have to think about those legal issues.

Yes you are out of their jurisdiction…but you are still always in someone’s jurisdiction, either the nation who’s ship registry you are on or the nation who owns the territorial waters/EEZ you are floating in.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #6

Yes and i am in the jurisdiction of someone i choose and i choose the one who does not force anything abusive on me but is good with basic ugly4 appliance. This is what “flag of convenience is about” in practical.


What can i do at sea i can not do in my house?
(John) #7

I don’t think China got that memo…


(Jonas Smith) #8

Or Russia. Or Israel. Or Ethiopia. Or the United States…


(Jonas Smith) #9

We all are in the jurisdiction of someone we choose, unless we are children and can’t move anywhere. You can live in whatever country you want, and live by their rules. But you have no more rights or freedoms when on a boat flying the flag of Panama than living in an apartment in Panama City…that is my point.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #10

i assume you understand the dynamics of freedom of the seas


(Wilfried Ellmer) #11

china got memo ?

how would you know ? - to find out look in what they are investing…gunboats or container fleets?

I became just aware of a USD 600million chinese investment in Cartagena it was harbor infrastructure not gunboats - this might well be the general line…


(Wilfried Ellmer) #12

Not aware that the people who invested USD 7,2 billion in this oceanic harbor and ship supply structure are investing something nearly that in gunboats…i honestly doubth it…


(John) #13

It would seem that China is investing piles of money in gunboats, container fleets and harbor infrastructure to support them around the world in much the same way the US did after WWII… And like the US then, they’re not being shy about it either! As for gunboat diplomacy, they’ve fought at least two naval engagements in the South China Sea against Vietnam and have come very close to the same with the Philippines. Like I said: Gunboat Diplomacy? They didn’t get the memo…


(Wilfried Ellmer) #14

as i said mentioning a few isloated incidents are not proof of a gunboat picture you are painting … the fact that there are exceptions from the general rule does not mean that the general rule is invalidated, on contrary the existance of EXCEPTIONS as such, just confirm the existance of the general rule - …what US and China do after WW2 is NOTHING compared to what was customary before WW2…money invested in global marine trade infrastructure versus money invested in gunboats on a global scale is about 1000:1 at least the last time i looked…the supposed “pile of money” what percentage of their GPD is it? - this is the real picture in a global context …


What percentage of the 1200. 000.000 tons of goods moved on the oceans in 2006 under the rules of the freedom of the seas was intercepted, blocked, hindered redirected, seized, pirated, by gunboats ? - this paints the REAL PICTURE - i sustain they got the memo and understood it very well. In fact my impression is they act along the economic convenience like anybody else - so - point not made…



(John) #15

I don’t think you understand what ‘Gunboat Diplomacy’ is or it’s purpose(s) historically or currently. I won’t boar you with history since you choose to ignore it in favor of your ‘new’ and ‘improved’ vision of reality where, somehow, people and nations inexplicably behave differently than they have in the past. Instead, I’ll just say, “just trust me i know it better”.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #16

that is ok - i really don’t understand on what facts and evaluations you base your opinions - everybody is endorsed to his opinions…i suggested a reevaluation on better foundations - but if you do so - that is up to you… in any case my info is rather directed to the “forum user” than to the “uninformed bystander” insisting in “unsustained opinions” which point of view is “better sustained” let the forum users decide …


(Wilfried Ellmer) #17

The pirate vessel postulate ( a floating structure without a flag will be considered pirate ) - seriously ??


The criminalization of american business redtaping hell need for break free…


Seasteading interesting for investors be part of the solution…


Exodus of the superrich our offer to those people…



#18

Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:54pm EDT

U.S. says Iranian forces fire on and board cargo ship in Gulf


#19

The ship was stolen, the flag country yanked the flag, and the
stateless ship was taken over by usa navy seals in international waters.

A team of U.S. Navy SEALs has taken over control of the seized tanker Morning Glory, the Pentagon officials said this morning. (March 17, 2014)

The operation, approved by the U.S. President Obama, was carried out last night around 2am GMT upon the request of the Libyan and Cypriot governments.

“No one was hurt tonight when U.S. forces, at the request of both the Libyan and Cypriot governments, boarded and took control of the commercial tanker Morning Glory, a stateless vessel seized earlier this month by three armed Libyans,” said Rear Adm. John Kirby at the Pentagon.

The SEAL team, supported by a helicopter from the guided missile destroyer USS Roosevelt (DDG-80), concluded the boarding operation just after 10 p.m. EDT on March 16 in international waters southeast of Cyprus.

The vessel was carrying a cargo of 234,000 barrels of crude oil, illegally taken from the Libyan government National Oil Company by the rebels.

A team of sailors from the USS Stout (DDG-55) will supervise the transit of the Morning Glory to a port in Libya.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #20

This is obviously a case of a stolen oil tanker where the most powerful navy on the globe was called in to take action on request of two governments on highest diplomatic level. Even so force was not used “light minded and quick” but the navy requested “direct order from the President” obviously highly concient that in politics does not only count what it IS it also counts what it LOOKS LIKE everybody seemed very concerned that this could be mistaken as as case of “gunboat politics” so even the press map about the incident makes emphasis on “highest level of authorization” and Diplomatic foreplay far from " fiering apon at sight" - all in all it is a Confirmation of the hipothesis that gunboat politics is down the drain of history as it shows the preocupation of 3 governments about a case interupting and disturbing oceanic trade instead of showing a navy implementing gunboats to interupt trade and implement nationalistic power.