SeaSteading City Theory….Why The SeaStead Prototypes are Doomed to Fail


#22

I’m trying to find sources for certain ‘waste’ materials, for Geopolymer, but the online sources aren’t very good at responding.

It may take commercialization, to get access to some of them, but, once there is access, the potential cost drops significantly. As it is, I’ve improvised a weak geopolymer, utilizing approximations of several waste streams. W/O the actual intended waste products, I cannot move forward, and i need Summertime temperatures, to prevent the need for external heat sources, as well.


#23

Ok, clearly you’ve thought about it quite a bit. What’s the rainfall like in the area you’re thinking of? I always assumed a seastead would use concrete cisterns full of rainwater both for ballast and usage. Also, how much water would the system actually lose? I’m assuming it’s a sealed environment here.

Not sure about the chemicals, but are they impossible to make locally? I always figured on growing seaweed for fertiliser. Maybe that’s not enough.

As for voting… I wouldn’t want democracy anyhow. Just let people be in charge of their own property. That way a massive population of guest workers isn’t really an issue.


#24

A few people are. I know anemone over on /r/floathouse does stuff with geopolymer concrete, katontri works with aluminium (I think) and I think someone else did some experimentation with foamed concrete, though I forget who. There was also a guy who made a group called hadean international. He made a bunch of hexagonal floats out of HDPE, but then real life intervened and he had to focus on his business for a while. I’d say he’ll be back eventually though.


#25

KatOnTri is working with steel. Everything she is making is geared to building her floating seastead/shop, and she plans on her shop to be able to reproduce all the segments, and adapt to make more and different components, in order to expand and to sell for others to be able to piece together.

There are many reasons she left this site. One is the crass negativity from certain individuals, to every thing she has built, regardless of the fact that she IS building, rather than encouragement. Another is the diverging goal of TSI, to build the mega-barge/condo, rather than support small projects that are in need of space and cooperative efforts for land support.

There has been no effort to develop cooperation with such regulatory agencies as the US Coast Guard, the US Army Corps of Engineers, etc. While that may seem negligible, both agencies affect what can and cannot be in US waters.

Some of us are working toward homesteading at sea, rather than building instant millionaires-only condos. Once several are afloat, communities will begin to develop.


(Matias Volco) #26

How small [quote=“groggygroggy, post:21, topic:1453”]
my understanding of human behavior has led me to conclude is micro scaled seasteads are the key to successful SeaSteads.
[/quote]

A metric would be very useful to know you mean by micro scaled.
The largest floating city I conceived is the size of a land-based hamlet, not even town.
I believe some Mennonite groups split in two when they reach 60 people or so (there was a thread about it in the old forums), is that what you’re referring to? '
A 50m diameter ocean sphere for instance could comfortably accommodate 50 to 80 people with infrastructure included.

This is a sun-drenched superficial option: Notice how small this megastructure is.


(GP) #27

Micro scaled means the SeaStead unit, the basic repeatable pattern must be very small. 1 family. I call this a COMPLEX Building Block.

Has anyone been following the Bundy Family thing in Oregon? Its a perfect example of how a family ‘unit’ is most likely to ‘fight’ for independence or freedom. The Bundy’s are a family. They are somewhat of an extended family…there are probably around 30 members. I don’t see the BASIC complex building block being that big though.

So, basically, in a fractal scale, the Family is the most BASIC complex building block. An extended family would be a Fractal Scale 2. Venice would be a Fractal scale 4. A small village would be more like a Fractal Scale 3.

Here’s my Theory only with Fractal Scaling:

Does everyone understand what I mean by FRACTAL? I can try to explain that better. It really is critical to understanding why the megalithic SeaStead’s will not solve SeaSteading.


(GP) #28

I believe the smaller SeaStead approach is most likely to spur a SeaSteading Movement. I like what they are doing on Freedom Cove. I also like their technology. But, I don’t think its ready for open water SeaSteading. IF they can get this technology working on the open ocean, I see SeaSteading exploding.


#29

I’m not sure if you understand the context of Freedom Cove. I suggest you come up to the Northwest and take a look around.

It’s not like there is one single floating development. Floating houses are everywhere. Particularly on the inland straits from Puget Sound north to Juneau. In Sitka, Alaska, population 9000 there are something like 4000 floating homes (also 10,000 cars, but that’s another story). While many people think Alaska is snow and ice, the weather close to the ocean water is temperate.

So in a region where thousands of people live on floats on the ocean, the Freedom Cove folks stand out because a) Their assemblage is especially junky, and b) They don’t actually have the legal right to be there, hence the have to be off-grid because they are squatters. So someday we’ll find out if they can navigate the ocean because the Mounties will decide to push them out, maybe to the US.

The Bundy’s are not an Oregon family. They claim to know the right use for land that is shared between the US Public and the Native Indian tribe. They want to restore the land to the “original land owner” by which they mean the original white land owner who they will select. That’s a strange thing to say with the native tribe staring you in the face. What the Bundy’s want is US Public in a national wildlife refuge given to their friends to fence off and overgraze. Public land (public commons) is a libertarian idea, and the idea is not to give it to your friends. Coming into another community using guns is called a show of force by most people, and it violates NAP.


(GP) #30

JW, I’m in Nebraska. Not a chance I’ll be heading to the NW anytime soon. Can you direct me where I can find more information about those 4000 floating homes, Sitka?

I’m agnostic on the Bundy’s. I used them as an example of a Family taking a stand. You don’t see millennial’s with the guts to take a stand on anything but gov’t propaganda.

Enough said about that situation.

Back to Freedom Cove…I really believe it’s the “prototype” family pattern that will take SeaSteading to masses. I’ll look into Sitka, alaska in the meanwhile too.


(GP) #31

JW; can you send me a link to the Sitka floating houses. I’m not finding any…


#32

Keep in mind, there is NOTHING in openwater, that is designed for prolonged use in openwater. Those ‘homes’ are houseboats and houses built on barges, not something that will be durable, or particularly stable in the open ocean, especially in a blow.

I’m planning a large hull, with attributes that are proven to have the ability to withstand storms in the North Atlantic, to put in the GoM, at an intended permanent mooring… Whole new ball of wax, from what is done in sheltered waters.


(Matias Volco) #33

I very much agree with advantages of starting small. As for fractals and “modularity”, when l look at maps of already existing cities I do notice, like in all organisms, fractal patterns, but more often than not they are not planned in a central or monolithic way and whimsical irregularity strikes out even in New World cities. Planned cities like Brasilia, Canberra or Yamoussoukro either fail or grow into a mess of labyrinthine suburbs. The leafs of plants, or the organs of animals, are in fact always fractal but not necessarily regular, and every integrating cell is slightly differently shaped (even when specialized to perform the same function).

If you look at the Ramform set up, which emulates in the high seas, the conditions found in the protected fjords of the NorthWest (pictured below) you may notice it is an incremental approach and there is a fractal element to be found, although no apparent modules.

The Tubular Sea-Homes, or superficial, semisubmerged, or underwater blimps, could be slightly larger than a sailboat, perfect for 1 or 3 people, or, as pictured, large enough for one big family or an extended Bundy family (whose neighbors can benefit from the option of floating away from) jk/ :slight_smile:

Each “cell” (sea tube) could work and even be seaworthy in itself. In array as pictured they could harness tidal energy, and form a big enough community to allow for some specialization.



There might be a difference between a homestead which implies certain isolation, family ties and certain energy self-sufficiency; and a larger attempt at a floating community that allows for specialized units, including individuals and small urban-type families.
The sea tubes or pods might be more useful in an array, communal set up which allows for even the smallest pods to barnacle to the cluster.

But since you mentioned: [quote=“groggygroggy, post:27, topic:1453”]
1 family. I call this a COMPLEX Building Block.
The Bundy’s are a family. They are somewhat of an extended family…there are probably around 30 members.
[/quote] Let’s tackle the open water, seaworthy floating homestead, one that could stand alone in total autonomy.

A small “ramform” concrete migrant island with one side just tall enough to produce a freak-wave piercing bow, and an opposite side, a moonpool, open to the water and its bounties, would be just large enough to accommodate two associated families or an extended family with enough storage and docking space to conduct diverse activities that can lead to energetic (i.e. food) self sufficiency.
You could picture this as the house and barn of a deep sea-farm:



(Matias Volco) #34

repeatable unit or pattern?
Why must it conform to X or Y criteria?

This line of thought insinuates, connotes, uniform mass production - and that both requires and leads to the same “big” monolithic institutions Seasteading offers an opt out from.

Jurisdiction issues aside, the simple fluidity of the watery medium allows for liberating non conflicting irregularity, something that is very difficult to pull off and in fact replicate in-land


(GP) #35

The way I meant pattern in this realm is behavioral. A fractal behavioral pattern is a method of doing something. Repeated: because the behavior is needed over and over.

Example: Kitchen pattern: the fractal is cooking, washing, socializing, storing food, equipment etc. The pattern is just about the same world wide. We use heat and cooling, we need to wash things. We need to cut things.

So, a repeatable behavioral pattern is very critical to understand.

Form follows function, as the saying goes. It doesn’t mean there’s a UNIFORM look, size, dimension, etc.

The basic Unit is behavioral: Family. (Basic also needs to be defined: primitive social unit) So the primitive, or original social unit is family. The fractal complex unit is the homestead… or the seastead, and the fractal then repeats and scales from there. Repeating does not mean copying exactly. Think of a dancer, repeating the same dance - except moving and adjusting over a wide landscape.

Does this help?


(GP) #36

GoM? Can you tell me what that means?


(GP) #37

I understand they are not seaworthy.

What if they could be converted to sea worthiness?

What if they could be set ON a platform, or have a conversion that increases their sea worthiness? Is that conceivable? I’m not a technology expert. But if you can create a conversion technology, then 4000 floating houses could be made sea worthy quickly.

I image that a new hull or barge is added below the existing structure. Any thoughts?


#38

Gulf of Mexico - The term “GoM” became fairly common after the Deepwater Horizon disaster


#39

They aren’t designed for openwater, or seaworthiness. There are MANY problems. They are designed for sheltered waters, so no protection from heavy seas, much less storms. Designed for shore connections, so no provision for water, sewage handling, power, or self-sufficiency. It may be possible, but is it feasible/practical? IMHO, start with a structure designed for the conditions, rather than beef one up, that is designed for protected waters.


(GP) #40

Thanks, hadn’t heard that before.


(GP) #41

Lets start with the storm design. What does the shelter part need to be storm worthy? (lets ignore the hull part for now) I’m completely new to the engineering side of SeaSteading, so walk me through the basics, if you don’t mind.