SeaSteading City Theory….Why The SeaStead Prototypes are Doomed to Fail


(GP) #1

Please see the attached file, let me know what you all think.

I have a 135 page PDF, what is the best way to add this to the forum?


Breakaway Civilization | Seasteading | Ocean Colonization | Advanced Oceanic Cities | Atlantis | Enlightenment | Oceanic Business Alliance | next big thing in business
#2

Post a link to it. Those that want to, will download it.


(GP) #4

try this drop box link


#5

Thank you.

Same argument I’ve been having, lately. The massive floating condo concept has more problems than you can shake a stick at.


(GP) #6

I think I’ve solved the problem. Its very complicated though. Which is my point.

I’m new to the forum, so can you tell me a little bit more about your thoughts on the problems?


#7

@groggygroggy I think it is not “Seasteading” you are complaining about. Just that the winning contest entries were chosen poorly. That’s all.

Check out my entry:
http://www.seasteading.org/architectural-design-contest/liberstead/

http://www.libersteadpublishing.com/liberstead.html

I believe it responds to nearly all your points in terms of organic growth, practicality, living patterns and such.

So I think you should change “Why Seastead Prototypes are Doomed to Fail” into “Why SOME Seastead Prototypes are Doomed to Fail”.

As for the forums, just take the most important thing, and start a topic. That’s what other people have done. I think you made about 12 points, but I think only 3-4 of them are really critical, and the others are “nice to have”. It would be interesting to discuss them.


(GP) #8

Thanks for your feedback. I’d like to learn more about your contest entry. What I would need to know more about is how small can you make your “basic” platform?

Its my early impression that One of the keys for SeaSteading is going to be some form of a platform that can be micro scaled. I’ll admit I’m not the technical expert on micro-scaling seated platform technology, its application and limitations. I’m more of a behavioral expert - City based behaviors.

Again, I’d like to learn more about your solution.

I’ll try to take your advice about breaking the presentation down into smaller discussions.


#9

The smaller platforms in my plan are actually the secondary development. They are 60x60 feet (20x20 meters). Any smaller and the wave motion will get too high.

In my plan, Phase 2 buildings 3-d printed as a single unit using EPS plus a binder. My initial plan is EPS plus Vinyl ester, along with some sort of stiffener like glass cloth. On the forums we recently discussed EPS with a cement mix soft of shell on it. The key to my plan is that the entire 60x60 by 30 foot tall structure is printed as a single piece. So the infrastructure to print it is significant. Only an existing city would put together the resources to print a whole building in one shot.

I tihnk what you are referring to is organic development house by house. We have that in my city now.

Each homeowner puts up the resources to make a single living unit.

The difference between single-owner buildings and a Seastead, to me at least, is that a Seastead is united as a political structure. That is; it is politically unified under a set of rules and guidelines that are agreed upon by the residents before the move in.

I think to create this political climate takes a starter project, and establish basic community standards, conquer life-safety issues, and handle eating and medical facilities, I envision an investor funded project of $250-500 million. That’s the Phase I in my plan. Even at that price, Phase I is only a baystead and not able to handle ocean environments.

I see this project as similar to making an investor-funded retirement facility. Also it is worthwhile to check out MS The World, which is a real community at sea.

The original cost of The World was $280 million, and the original investors lost their investment. The original condo owners paid about $2-4 million each, and the units now run $14 million each.

So I see Seasteading as going on the same model, and hopefully for about 1/10th the cost of MS The World.


#10

Evryone has their own concepts. MOST individual seastead designs would join in a dynamic, horizontal plane, much like tying up a bunch of floating platforms and boats together.

IMHO, it will be found that using a flying formation, like birds use, will create the most benefit, in terms of reduced wave action.

my current concept is the use a real Ramform hull, and have a 2-3 story residence, with built-in hydroponics. Use a biogas digester to treat sewage and paper wastes, to create bioslurry hydroponic fertilizer. i would prefer to use the new e-glass edge solar technology, for power, combined with wind and water generation.

Goal is to use Integrated Multi-Trophic Aquacultuer in the vicinity, I would like to farm kelp, use that to feed a specie of feeder fish, to feed to market fish. Floating Abalone beds would also consume some of the kelp. Along with that, oysters and kelp would help mitigate fish excrement. I have also researched methods of aeration as a means of enriching the water and lifting solid wastes, to keep from polluting the bottom.

Since I do not have the capability to make decent graphics (no personal talent, and inadequate software, both), even my best attempts are amateur-grade.


(GP) #11

Can you make this work on a micro scalar level? Specifically the ramform hull. I’m not familiar with ramform technology. If there’s a 2-3 story residence, how wide is the platform it sits on?


(GP) #12

EPS: Expanded Polystyrene Styrofoam?

Yes, I’m thinking more organic. At least as the starter for Seasteading.

Let me step back and explain why its more likely to be organic.

All the seated prototypes are all based upon the “Dependent” thinking people. The people least likely to go Seasteading.

Seasteading is the new frontier for Individualist. For those who want to do it all on their own. They are tired of government stealing what they produce. Or they at least feel they can provide for themselves.

SO, i see the biggest influx of people who aren’t really wealthy, but are really resources, smart and hard working.

They are more likely to want to be nearly 100% independent of other people, and they will want to be produce their own food.

First, the initial investments are for the small residence and perhaps boating and fishing equipment. Gradually, the Seasteader would acquire more operational units like green houses, fish processing, outdoor spaces, secondary and tertiary buildings.

I see them evolving from Land to Water. Very small at first, not far from shore, but eventually more and more toward the open seas.

What I think would accelerate SeaSteading would be some kind of floating layered platform, that can be adapted for deeper and deeper water, as the Steastead is built up.

Ive attached an image:

Is there a way to build a platform that can be added to vertically to make it more seaworthy over time??

The second way I see this evolving is with additional components as the Seasteader needs them. Each colored item could be added independently of the others. This seems to be the least expensive up front cost wise.

Let me know your thoughts.


#13

My thoughts are; that’s too costly. There’s no market for it.

Everyone wants to be environmental. But it gets back to the Paper cup vs the hot clean water to clean the cup. Sometimes one is right and sometimes the other is right.

The energy cost to produce EPS may be easier on the environment than wood, which requires harvesting, or concrete which requires fuel to heat the calcium carbonate.

I long ago rejected that any seastead would be self-sufficient for food or waste disposal. The most efficient food is imported food - nearly 100%. The local gardens should grow fresh tastes, maybe some veggies and fruit, local eggs, and maybe pig or two. But go figure the space needed to organically farm food for people. It’s like 1 hectar for 5 people. And that is - if the crops don’t fail. Now figure the cost of making 1 hectar float on salt water, and to desalinate the water for the crops. A 100 Kg bag of wheat, organically farmed at sea, will run you 100 times the cost of wheat on the open market. Wheat is cheapest to farm in vast fields of dry states.

So ignore the wheat and count the cost for raw nutrition. Have your residents eat fish, or fish byproducts, or brewers yeast. You still can’t match the cost of shipping all food by boat compared to production at sea. That’s what I have concluded.

Handling waste is similar. Aside from the very long thread on this forum about food and waste as one topic, you’ll never convince me to eat tomatoes grown in my neighbor’s poop. I don’t know what drugs he is taking or what diseases she has. Waste needs to be separated from liquids and safely disposed. The liquid component, even though “clean” should be disposed in the ocean, and not put into the food supply.

Keep in mind the safety factor. Let’s say you make a seastead, and some yokel comes to live there, and they die. Maybe they get drunk and fall off a platform. Maybe they get dysentery from the tomatoes. Or a hurricane flips their home-made concrete house and it sinks with kids on board. What will you say? We have no government so each person was responsible for their own concrete boat? Look at what the cruise industry goes through with every incident of disease and death at sea. Keep that in mind when you start dreaming up new systems. New systems are great. But they need to be as-safe or more safe than existing systems. Any failure may mean the end of the community.


#14

Hull is a matter of scale. Looking to build at ~52 ft Long and 35 ft beam. Call it the equivalent of a 60 ft double-wide, per deck. Roughly in line with the Ramform yacht design scale. Never been one this small, but makes me no nevermind. Won’t be one, until it’s built…


#15

I long ago rejected that any seastead would be self-sufficient for food or waste disposal. The most efficient food is imported food - nearly 100%. The local gardens should grow fresh tastes, maybe some veggies and fruit, local eggs, and maybe pig or two. But go figure the space needed to organically farm food for people. It’s like 1 hectar for 5 people. And that is - if the crops don’t fail. Now figure the cost of making 1 hectar float on salt water, and to desalinate the water for the crops. A 100 Kg bag of wheat, organically farmed at sea, will run you 100 times the cost of wheat on the open market. Wheat is cheapest to farm in vast fields of dry states.

Good analysis, but I think you’re missing a couple of points. Firstly, you seem to be thinking of conventional agriculture (flat open fields) which is only efficient if you have lots and lots of existing land and no danger of being swamped. Space intensive vertical hydroponic gardens would be much more efficient. Also, they can stack (they’re not dependent on sunlight), so it’s not all about spreading them out over a large enough area.

Secondly, don’t forget that a major cost of farming is the cost of labour. Being outside US jurisdiction, you potentially have a much lower cost of living (no taxes, no regulatory burdens, no minimum wages etc.) so your labour will cost alot less. Not so sure about pigs, but fresh vegetables and eggs would be no problem. Fish farms too.


#16

Actually what I used for modeling was Tropic zone hydroponic rice farming. Rice is farmed in small pots that are grown in nearly vertical columns.

What got me to reject this was a) the amount of fresh water needed was enormous. My city model uses marine desalinzation (membrane type) and cannot produce that amount of salt-free water. b) Hydroponics is dependent on other chemicals in critical amounts. Failure of supply of any of these would be a crop failure. Rice can be triple-cropped in the tropics, but losing one crop means 4 months loss.

Before I could get a realistic scenario, I had to choose a location. I chose the Gulf of Fonseca which is mentioned in the DeltaSync report. It’s a great location because it is close to Miami - 2 hours by air plus a one hour drive. However, it is in the resource poor country of Honduras, so you can’t just go to the nearby Lowe’s when you are out of magnesium phosphate. Or maybe you can, and I just don’t know that.

I put this in my book. My 200 American residents end up with 800 Latino workers from the local community, who are mostly unpaid except for room and board (which is very nice room and good food). As my story progresses it touches several times on the issue whether the workers have an equal vote in city affairs. Several characters in my story do some whitesplaining that the Hondurans are not libertarians and so cannot vote because it would destabilize the community…

Go to Hong Kong on a Sunday and walk around downtown. About 3% of Hong Kong’s population are Philippine women and they all get the same day off.

They can’t vote. It’s an amazing sight to see. Kuwait also has a huge problem where low paid foreign workers outnumber residents. They also cannot vote.

http://www.libersteadpublishing.com/

My book is not intended as a morality tale. It’s intended to make people laugh, and also think. By the time we get to book three, I think my city will have adopted Spanish as their native language and be well on the way to creating a community with a unique flavor that reflects all of the residents. Until then, it is a bit dysfunctional to create a place that is a utopia for some while being reliant on low wages to others. So maybe it -is- a morality tale.


#17

Rice is possibly the single most water-intensive food plant grown. In general, most vegetables raised in hydroponics, or aquaponics uses 1/10th of the water that conventional, soil-grown vegetables use. There are varieties that grow in normal soil, rather than wetland/paddies, which may be more adaptable to hydroponics and aquaponics.


(Gordon Hoffman) #18

What you are saying feels like a very sound course. I watched Ricardo Radulovich’s podcast again and he seems to have the basics down. This is doable. I need to study the ram-form a bit more. I want to harness wave energy for stability and calming (I would have to be there for a while before I could figure out how to deal with waves)
I need to get some geopolymer concrete . Can I put a counter top with the stuff?.. Build in a sink? And we’ll need lots of tanks for various tasks.


(GP) #19

Is there anyone experimenting with SeaSteading materials? For example, Can you do a 1/10th scale SeaStead and test it in a pool? Does anyone know if there’s a group doing prototyping and experimenting for SeaSteading?


(Wilfried Ellmer) #20

hundreds of projects are floating already… oceanic business alliance has 3 dozend in the pipeline among other things a three phase plan for going from small to city size is in progress …the technology is known and widley tested out… since the beginning of this century. Especially these 50 extraordinary floating structures have laid a solid base for oceanic construction far beyond “wave tank and wonder material experiments”…awareness what is out there already…is required.


Breakaway Civilization | Seasteading | Ocean Colonization | Advanced Oceanic Cities | Atlantis | Enlightenment | Oceanic Business Alliance | next big thing in business
(GP) #21

I wasn’t very clear, I try to clarify what I meant: I’m not looking for a proof of concept.

I’d like to know who or what people or groups are experimenting with materials and methods to advance SeaSteading, and if so, how are they doing it.

Are there any demonstration videos of new materials being tested, or of new methods being tried.

I would specifically look at the cost effectiveness of these materials and methods too.

I’m new to the vast arena of Specific technology of SeaSteading. My specialty is human behavior and cities. BUT, what my understanding of human behavior has led me to conclude is micro scaled seasteads are the key to successful SeaSteads. Forgive me for being a naysayer, but I don’t see large scale success coming from the large monolithic modular prototypes that were submitted to the SeasStead Institute.