Seasteading as a humanitarian cause


(Chris) #61

It’s definitely founded and to the point.

Let me give you an example of the socialist’s lack of understanding of economics.

Our current budget is $3.8 trillion dollars. Our current population is roughly about 319 million.

That means we currently spending more than $11,000 for every man woman and child in this country.

How many in your family? 4? 5? That’s $44,000 to $55,000 just for your family for just this one year. How much is your income?

AND YOU KEEP WANTING TO SPEND MORE!

We are constantly borrowing to maintain what we are spending now.

We are currently $13 trillion in the hole and that will double in 10 years.

Socialism is as economically irresponsible as conservatism is morally weak.

Forgive me if I wince a little bit every time a socialist tells me I am rich enough.


#62

The point of it being off point is that it has nothing to do with seastead as a humanitarian cause. You have successfully derailed this topic pretty well. Congratulations. I will stop responding to your pointless, off topic, political arguments now.


(Chris) #63

Could it possibly be a humanitarian cause? Maybe, but it would be very difficult to be sustainable. A possibility would be a situation something like women on waves.

Could it support even a tiny portion of the 12 million Syrian refugees in a sustainable way? No. It’s economically unsound as pointed out way above.

It got derailed when the socialists started saying everyone is rich enough to do more. They are also economically unsound.


#64


#65

First of all these stupid wars are ridiculously expensive and yet we still had the Boston marathon bombings and it seems there’s not much that can be done to absolutely stop another so maybe that’s why we spend so much money and keep in mind even NASA spends a considerable amount of money on military projects.

But I view the world less on money and more on materials. Let’s take the great depression for example, the factories and trucks are trains were working perfectly fine and then one day (not literally) all of a sudden it stopped working so why is that. Show me how you can physically build a factory with pieces of paper or electronic digits and I don’t mean buying supplies than I might reconsider.

The world we live in has lost its sense of reality, what god forsaken universe does it make sense to waste physical finite resources to ship raw materials and products around the world in order to receive more fake playschool monopoly money that is nothing but colored paper with numbers (digits) printed on it


#66

Now let me clarify, I think a government or condo administration or whatever should “earn its keep” (I don’t like taxes) so if that means that I buy power, water and sewer from them than so be it. They can also start a sovereign wealth fund for all I care which is also a way for a seastead to survive in my opinion but if people have their kelp and fish farm than I see no problem with it.


(Chris) #67

Oh I agree. We spend more on military than the next 7 countries combined. Our past policies created some of the religious fundamentalism we are fighting now as well. We spent money in the past to insure we’d have to spend even more money in the future. Also you are smart for comparing things as materials rather than money. Our wise government has made sure our money is not really backed by anything anymore.

Now explaining the great depression could be a book in itself, but I’ll try to put it in a nutshell.

  1. The Federal Reserve was created to control the money supply. This creates boom and bust cycles in the economy. The Fed lowered the interest rate to create a huge unsustainable boom spurred by out of control inflation.

  2. Herbert Hoover went on a spending binge with a huge increase in Federal spending which shifted a lot of incomes from being tax generating to tax supported.

  3. Investors started noticing the bubble and pulled their money out so they weren’t left holding the bag in the crash. This spiraled down quickly as more and more investors pulled their money as the market dropped causing Black Tuesday.

  4. Banks that loaned out easy money to less than credit worthy ventures started to fail. This wiped out the consumer and made the mess worse.

  5. FDR’s new deal plan to revive the economy by printing more and more money and investing that in public works projects extends the depression even longer. Unemployment was at a record 16.3% when he started office and 2 terms and 8 years later after doubling government spending it was at 17.2%.

This all kinda ties into your statement about money. When the government created money to spend on building a road for example, it only created a temporary job with non-productive money. Once the road was built, the job was over and no profit was reinvested. If a company with private customers made that money, they would spend some of it for advertising for example. This would have created a job at an advertising company to get more jobs for the private company. It’s the productivity that’s important. So you are kinda right, but it’s not so much about the stuff as the productivity though.

I hope that made sense. If not, don’t be afraid to ask me more.


(Chris) #68

You know, I want to eat my words a bit.

There is a way that a seastead can also be a humanitarian cause and even support Syrian refugees.

If you could get any seastead, large or small, to the point where it was self sufficient and in need of labor and you had the space, it would make perfect sense to take in some refugees.

You could employ the refugees and they could rent space until they could build their own space. Once they’ve built their own space, it would be their choice if they moved on or stayed.

I can’t think of anything more humanitarian then allowing them to self-determine their own destiny. It is certainly more humanitarian than becoming their parents for life.


#69

I agree.

Also, I don’t have a problem for this thread to go off topic,…but if it does, let it go on a constructive off the topic subject, NOT on talking about stupid socialism or the trillions of US debt,…


#70

Trust me I know a thing or two about economics 101. m3 money supply, elasticity etc. But certainly not enough to be a professor, yes I’m aware of the reasons the great depression started and if I remember the government even had a program that would loan money to people to buy stocks on the exchange but the caveat was that the loans could be called for full repayment at anytime and they eventually were, but I would have to look into it to be sure.

Maybe it’s because I understand the system so much that I’m starting to dislike it so much.

Now you mention about helping refugees with jobs on a seasted but what if there illiterate or handicap from war injuries and they cannot work?

For me what matters most if I have my way is the total economic output of the seastead so it can earn foreign currency to import what we don’t have and not so much individual productivity as long as they put in decent effort and the main policy is work sharing. So if that means there is only 3 hours a week of work divided by all workers than so be it. They will still receive a living wage it’s all just about distribution.

But there will still be help if the people need it without working and if it takes too long than it will be dealt with case by case and they will have a chance to explain themselves before being told that we have to help other people for the moment if it comes down to that.

On my seasted colony thing people will have an almost unlimited chance to reinvent and improve themselves, if they want to try and make there own refrigerator and can prove it or are sponsored by someone who knows how to than they can use the fully equipped community machine shop free of charge to try it out and if they want than they can rent it temporarily and make more and eventually buy there own machine shop if they so desire. Same goes with the community kitchen they can rent for a day to test it out or just to cook up and sell there seafood that they caught without having to spend a million dollars on something they may not need to use all the time.


(Chris) #71

Well if you are already a self sufficient seastead, you could still bring in a refugee and support them as long as you are not losing more money in the process than you have surplus. Most people are employable though. The illiterate can still do physical work and someone that is handicapped can still use their mind. The important thing if you are in charge of that seastead is not to force that burden on someone else. It’s perfectly fine for you to reach out and help someone, but requiring someone else to do it is where you start becoming the government you are trying to leave.

Bring in multiple currencies if you can. Then you don’t suffer the whims of any one government. The best way to make what you want work is with a partnership agreement. Everyone shares the load and everyone shares the profit.

As far as help for those that need it goes, you can buy life insurance and disability insurance as a group to help so that those things don’t come up often.

Your seastead is gonna have a machine shop anyway, so that’s not too big a deal, but building a community kitchen doesn’t make a lot of sense unless you think someone is the next Colonel Sanders or people don’t already have their own kitchens. If you have a partnership, all the partners would decide what to invest in and what not to though. The problem that you are going to have is getting everyone to agree. It would have to be everyone too. If you go with the majority rules, and the investment fails, you are going to have some bad blood.


#72

I guess when I say community kitchen I mean restaurant. As far as investors go it would be like buying government bonds, or something.

What investors would be investing in is the main economic output of the seastead which I don’t know exactly what it is yet but maybe using wave energy to make hydrogen and using a reaction with baking soda to get co2 and combining them with the Sabitier reaction to ultimately make liquid natural gas for export. I guess it depends on how much it costs to build a wave energy machine vs output and I might even have to buy a gas station in China to sell the liquid and compressed natural gas but who knows, maybe the main export will be seafood raised in a pen.


(Chris) #73

How do you determine if the cook at your restaurant worked as hard as the chemist at the LNG factory? Do those guys get paid the same or does it have more to do with how many bonds they bought. If it’s just the bonds, can the cook just retire if he bought enough bonds and the LNG business is booming? If the cook retires and a new cook comes in and buys more bonds does that make everyone else’s bonds worth less? Lot’s of stuff to think about.


#74

To add to what I was saying the seastead will be more like a very humane company town. There will be no taxes and no rent on basic housing units but upgraded one’s will cost money.

The workers will get there pay and the company will have its income, and here’s the bad part. The workers will be payed with “company money” like in the old days but they can always exchange it with any national currency pending availability and of course they can always leave if they don’t like it.

The reason for company money is to hopefully keep the money in local circulation and not have a situation where somebody builds a fast food barge nearby and slowly drains the money away to a foreign land to never be seen again and as always no one has to live or work on the seastead if they don’t want to.

And if someone wants to set up there flip-ship or aquaculture barge and engage in mutual trade where the seastead buys food and they buy electricity or fuel than I think I could work something out.


(Chris) #75

Company money is going to be a tough nut to crack. How do you determine what it is worth? Who sets the exchange rate? How will you stop counterfeiting? If it is exchangeable for another currency, what if they suddenly print a bunch of money? What’s to keep you from printing a bunch of company money and spending it for yourself? Just keeping control of the money is going to get expensive pretty quick.


#76

How does Wall Mart do it with gift cards :wink:

On a serious note it would be electronic just like gift cards so it would probably be difficult to counterfeit but I don’t yet have a full answer.

It will probably be pegged to a major but mostly stable (key word mostly) currency to determine its value.

What’s to stop a store from over issuing gift cards or a country such as Zimbabwe from just printing money as they please. Unfortunately in this world all one can rely on is reputation and hopefully mine will be good.


#77

I know company money will be a tough sell just like national currency but mine will probably be the only seastead people can live on and be almost guaranteed a job with a living income as long as they can meet minimum standards and if they do well than they will be compensated well.


(Chris) #78

Gift cards are a different story, they are giving Walmart cash to spend later and Walmart hands them a piece of plastic. Walmart doesn’t have to worry about all that other stuff. They already have the money and you are only spending money you already gave them.

A better way to solve your problem may be just to accept whatever currency someone has and make sure your exports are more than your imports. (This is going to be crucial anyway or your seastead won’t last very long) Let the rest of the world figure out the exchange rate for you. If you don’t like a certain currency, buy bitcoin with it, but keep several different stable ones.

The only way you are going to make sure that your exports are more than your imports is making sure that you have a self sufficient design to start and that least 1 product that is in very high demand.


#79

It is true that Wall Mart receives cash for their gift cards but technically they could give gift cards to employees or even suppliers if it were legal and employees and suppliers accepted them as payment.

It’s almost the same system minus the cash payment before hand, but the same issues with counterfeit etc.


(Chris) #80

And then they would have to worry about all that other stuff. I’m not trying to stop you, just letting you know it’s going to be a rough road.