Seasteading as a humanitarian cause


(Nick Gencarelle) #21

You know anybody can say anything-the idea is just to have some protections regardless of who it is. People can argue points all year-getting something done is the objective.


#22

Don’t forget, Russia has a significant presence in Syria, going back decades. Everyone but the refugees are fighting: the rebels, Assad’s army, ISIL, and the Russians.


(Jonas Smith) #23

Everything is easy when you are spending someone else’s money.

Doesn’t matter, because as I said the smugglers are only paid if the refugees make it safely to shore. So it is in the smuggler’s best interest not to pack more people on a boat than the boat can handle, because if it goes down the smuggler gets nothing.

It has nothing to do with money. It has to do with a combination of Islamophobia and anti-immigrant sentiment that is currently sweeping the industrialized world…especially the United States.


(Chris) #24

It would prob matter to the refugee. And do you really think the smuggler cares? He’s still going to charge the refugee the same way as he has before, load the boat to the hilt and if it happens to make it, you give him a bonus.

Since it doesn’t have to do with money, let’s put em on rocket ships and use them to colonize Mars far away from ISIS. Sorry, I thought this was about something that might actually work. Is the U.S. Islamaphobic? Yes, but these refugees are currently fleeing from Islamic Militants thousands of miles away from the U.S. into countries that are supposed to have your modern progressive values and most of those countries are shutting them out because they simply can’t afford it. Why? Because those same ‘money is no object’ principles have most of those countries teetering on bankruptcy as it is. It is funny that the most conservative among them, Germany is the one offering the most help. Yes they are doing it because of guilt from their past, but they are also doing it because they are able to do it. They are wise enough to commit to the practical and not to ideas that are more ‘pie in the sky’ than something that is actually doable.


(Jonas Smith) #25

Such as?

Nope. The United States is quite capable of moving tens of thousands of people all around the world when it wants to (coughcoughIRAQWARcoughcough).

This isn’t to say that the US hasn’t done a lot…it’s given billions in aid. But this isn’t a throw-money-at-it problem…these people need somewhere to call home, at least for a little while.

Because they can make a difference? You think just because a country is thousands of miles away it can just ignore an issue? Distance doesn’t stop them when they want natural resources or they need to blindly strike militarily at a mistaken enemy (coughcoughIRAQWARcoughcough).

  1. There is a difference between immigrants and refugees
  2. Just because the EU doesn’t help the US, the US shouldn’t help Syria? That’s a healthy humanitarian attitude.

I never said money is no object. I specifically said that money has nothing to do with it. These wealthy countries have more than enough money, they just don’t have the political will. My situation is the exact opposite…I have the will just not the same level of disposable income.

No, it doesn’t. The majority of refugees are Muslim, which makes sense since the majority of Syria is Muslim. It doesn’t matter that they are trying to escape from other Muslims.

The US has had no problem in the past accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees that were turned away from other, nearby nations. What’s different now? Is it that those refugees were predominately Buddhist? Possibly. In my opinion the difference is the growing anti-immigrant mentality and unwarranted fear of Islam in the West.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything. If you don’t like how your tax dollars are spent…leave.


(Chris) #26

I’ve already seen your economics so far, so forgive my skepticism about who you think is rich enough, but I was talking about those progressive European countries right next door shunning them away. The European countries. Speaking of next door, You think Turkey being right next to Syria and being where the refugees are headed to has anything to do with them having more refugees than the U.S. or Canada being 6000 miles away? Turkey is also denying them protection and basically holding up a sign saying “Europe is this way :arrow_right:” That’s pretty much happening in Serbia as well. Same with Croatia, but they got called out on it and basically closed their border with Serbia. They aren’t offering refugees anything other than a place to pass through. Greece, Italy, Portugal, France, Spain, Hungary, Croatia, have all spent more than they should have and can’t handle any more. Why you think the US and Canada should even be in the picture amazes me. They are freaking 6000 miles away! The U.S. has thousands of Cubans, Mexicans, and South Americans crossing it’s border every year since before I was born and nobody was screaming that the EU should do more.

Again it’s so easy for you to point and say someone else is rich enough to pay for it. If you feel this strongly, buy a plane ticket, fly to Turkey and bring a Syrian family back with you. Money is no object after all. I know you’re rich enough. You are planning to build a seastead.

But it does kinda shoot holes in your “It’s because they’re is Islamic” argument. If they were Buddist or Hindu or Christian, they would be having the same problem. BTW, there are plenty of those refugees from Syria as well.

One of the reasons I want to Seastead, is because there are so many people that agree with you and think they can force me into paying for any charitable cause that they think is worthy by saying that “I’m rich enough.”

Here’s something to read if you feel up to it. It’s a long story, but you’ll be better off having read it.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/crockett.htm


#27

I need to point out that if not for government charity today, there’s millions of people who would be dead. You can count them up if you like: those in nursing homes, those on disability (truely unable to work or employers unwilling to hire them), the aged living at home, those who are not being paid a “living wage”, and those between jobs during economic downturns.

Side effects of a full discussion of this charity topic are: churches unwilling to give for religious reasons, distaste for euthanasia, unequal tax rates, various overcharges that put people into poverty (excessive rents, etc), seasonal variations in food and heating oil, etc etc. I don’t wish to get into these topics.

But if you cut off government charity, like Reagan did, people will die again.


(Chris) #28

And millions of people still do today. If you really want to run a charity into the ground, put a government in charge of it. Take a look inside one of those public nursing homes and a private one and look at the difference. I’m not talking about a private one for the wealthy. I’m talking about a private nursing home spending less per patient than the public ones. Then a stroll to a VA hospital. Get a good look at that VA hospital because that’s where our health care system is headed in the US. The government stalls care long enough until you die and don’t need the care anymore. That’s why you see all those Canadian politicians come over to where I live, to the Cleveland Clinic for healthcare. The wait is just too long for the public health system over there. That’s what is going to happen here. Then that wonderful welfare system where if you want a raise, just have another kid. It’s all Okay. I’m rich enough for it all. The mismanaged money sucking mess that someone else picked out for me to pay for is all well within my means. Slap a Hillary Clinton bumper sticker on my ass and call me a money float. Let’s all fly in thousands of those Syrian refugees 6000 miles first class and build them a seastead in Chesapeake Bay and have them be fruitful and multiply so we have enough Syrians to launch in our government sponsored Mars Colony project. We already started to run out of ideas on how to burn money on this planet.


#29

How does that translate to ISIS having a seastead, exactly? They don’t have a navy. If they even thought about it, there are so many warships sitting around in the Mediterranean that their boat would get blow to kingdom come before it even left the dock. Or maybe they’d get hit by the allied fighters and bombers stationed all over the Mediterranean. Doesn’t really make much of a difference to me.


(Chris) #30

All you need is one boat and some men with guns, not a navy. Or even worse, one boat and one man with high explosives.

It’s the same way they have taken dams and oil refineries despite the arsenal on the other side.


#31

Wait, do what today?

I injured my back at home 30 years ago this year. After a couple of days, i returned to work, work said i was injured and that i could not return to work. The doctor agreed i was injured, significantly, and would not “authorise” me for work. Work said unless i performed a test for them, the test involving an action which was plainly explicitly written into the employee manual as grounds for termination, i could not return to work. Paperwork and policies have kept me out of work for 30 years, no matter my pleading and test taking and forms filled out. And the entire time there has been ZERO non-government agency of any kind offering any kind of help. I lost my house, 40 acres, and was living in my car for years. At any time, someone could have hired me for something, even claiming a tax deduction for doing so. But it’s never happened, and never will. So thank you for paying your taxes to support me, but it’s your fault for not hiring me to earn an honest wage.


(Jonas Smith) #32

Wow, somebody has been drinking the Republican kool aid. Or, should I say, been drinking the tea


#33

To be honest, the neighbors who have terrorised me for over 10 years raised a daughter (and son) on welfare, and while in high school she got pregnant and dropped out, and is on welfare. As soon as the daughter (new mom) is old enough that her mom’s (the new grandmother) welfare is dropped, the daughter will have another kid or two to make up for it, keeping the household income up to par. It’s not the first time i’ve witnessed this happening. I once overheard a girl telling another how to go about having another kid and qualify for more welfare, getting around the requirement for naming the father. While they are pulling this crap and ripping off the system, there’s nothing i can legally do to make money, including selling stuff on ebay. They get financially rewarded for having babies, i get penalised and threatened with jail and benefit termination if i try to support myself. There’s no justice.


(Chris) #34

Many people still die today. In the nursing homes. In the VA hospitals.

And where does that paperwork and those policies come from? The government. Nobody is going to hire you and be on the hook for the bill if you get re-injured and they are forced to be on the hook for the bill by the government when they hire you.

I really do feel for you Kat, but if you lost your house, how much did the government really help you? I’ll bet you and I paid for a lot more than they did to help you. If you had less taxes and more money in your pocket, you probably could have afforded private disability insurance or a life insurance policy that pays for disability with coverages that you chose. Of course the government could mandate disability insurance for everyone, but then it would cost to much and wouldn’t cover anything.

Let me tell you my own story.

Before he passed away, I took care of my grandfather. Once my grandmother died, he decided that he wanted to still live in his own house and would have nothing to do with moving in with me. He didn’t want to be a burden. He was still pretty healthy for his age and still able to drive. He lived a 5 min drive from me and I was able to check in on him almost every day, so I reluctantly agreed. One day I took him to VA hospital for his normal appointment. His was on Social Security and Medicare, so he could go to the local hospital if he wanted, but he liked going to the VA because there were guys there his age that he could talk to. I hated the VA because it was always an all day affair and I usually had to take off work for longer than I wanted to, but we went there because that’s where he liked to go. Well that day for some reason his doctor adjusted medication. He raised the dose on one drug and prescribed another drug, I still don’t know why to this day. I didn’t talk to the doctor that day. I try to, but usually those doctors so overworked that they don’t walk out with their patients. Well the next day I stopped by his house to mow the lawn. When I got there his door was locked and all the lights were off. His car was in the driveway, so I knew he was home. He wouldn’t answer the door when I knocked. I found him lying on the floor next to his bed. He was conscious, but was not talking. He was reaching in the air with one hand. I called the ambulance. I found out later that he had a stroke. The adjustments to his medication had been the cause. The doctors got him stabilized, but he had to go through rehabilitation. He went to a nursing home for that. A public nursing home. The nursing home had instructions to monitor his blood every 12 hours and adjust his new medication accordingly. Although they did monitor when they were supposed to, his medication was never adjusted and he was back in the hospital within 2 weeks. Within a week, the hospital had him ready to go back to rehab, but a doctor there explained to me that he was probably not going to be better before medicare stopped paying for rehab and he would wind up having to be admitted to the nursing home long-term. That meant that I had to sign over his fully paid for house to cover what medicare didn’t. At this point, I knew he wasn’t going to live by himself anymore anyway, so I wasn’t thinking about that too much. My main focus was to find him a better nursing home so he good get better. I found a private nursing home that charged Medicare the exact same amount that they paid to the public nursing home. The difference was night and day. He got 10 times the attention there than the public nursing home. If he was still there after Medicare stopped paying for rehab, it was going to be the same deal. He passed away in the nursing home, but I couldn’t help thinking that if he went there instead of the public nursing home, he’d be alive right now. If he hadn’t gone to the VA he wouldn’t have had the problem to begin with.

Not long after this, all the talk about Obamacare started. I still remember “If you like your current healthcare plan, you can keep it!” Well thanks to Obamacare I couldn’t keep it. I had a great healthcare plan and it was the main reason that I stayed with the company I was working for so long. Shortly after the law passed, we were informed that our plan was considered one of the Cadillac plans and our company was switching plans. When the new year came and the switch was made, the new plan covered half as much, had more than twice the deductible, and literally cost us three times as much. With that, I had enough motivation to quit my job and open my own business.

The first thing that I wanted to do was to find another healthcare plan. Which I soon found out that I couldn’t do because it was not in the enrollment period and I would have a lapse and a penalty if I didn’t keep paying my old job’s plan until the next enrollment period. I still do not know why you can’t enroll at any time. Anyway, I kept paying my contribution and what would have been my employers contribution until then. I did find a plan that covered more, though not anywhere near what my old plan covered. It also still costs about 3 times as much as what I was paying and with about twice the deductible.

Next, trying to start my own business, I found out just how hard it is to hire an employee now. My first employee would literally have to be the person that fills out all the paperwork for having employees. If I could afford to hire 5 right off the bat, it might be worth it to have that employee, but right now it isn’t. My first few employees are going to have to be contractors instead of employees and I am going to have to quit what I’m doing be a paper work fill-outer to hire permanent ones after that.

Kat I would love to hire you. I have the perfect job for you. I need someone that could work from home, part time and set appointments for me over the phone. You could make money and I could stop setting my own appointments and make more money. I really need someone for this job. Unfortunately, the job isn’t 1099-able, and I can’t afford to employ the paperwork filler outer to hire you and if I could, I would have to pay them for more hours to be a 2 state paper filler outer. That’s not even taking into account the extra taxes that I’d have to pay for payroll for both of you. The government had made sure that I would lose money by hiring you. You wanna work, I want to hire you and the government made sure that neither of those things can happen. Let’s put them in charge of even more stuff. It’s worked so well for Greece, Italy, Portugal, etc…


(Chris) #35

Nope, wrong answer. I hate the republicans just as much as I hate the democrats.

Both parties want to use government force to force the other side to do what they want. It’s just a matter of what you want to force on me.


(Chris) #36

And now if she even wants to get a part time job, she can’t because the government will cut her check. She’s in the system for life now.


#37

Funny thing about all that: i have my passport and am building a floating thing to live on. If i must stay on disability for lack of other income, i will need to officially stay in usa waters till retirement age. But at least i can have a garden and fish for food, and no neighbors. And if the air gets bad, i can be on the move in 5 minutes. Of course, i still need to find out where i can put in, and then where i can legally anchor for as long as i want. The money situation, i dunno… maybe i can let people camp on my drydock in exchange for gifts.


(Chris) #38

How close are you till retirement Kat? I might have some ideas for you.


#39

Seven years. But that isn’t what’s driving my seasteading, it’s the neighbors and the feds going bankrupt. There’s talk of cutting disability by 30% across the board next year because there’s no foreseeable tax revenue to sustain it at current levels. At age 66, i will get another cut when forced onto retirement income. Because of neighbors, i have been unable to grow this place (on land) into something that can sustain me regardless of the fed government’s finances. I simply must start over on the water. And the sooner, the better.


(Chris) #40

Look into Panama’s Pensionado program. That might stretch your dollar a little more after you retire. Of course that could be an awful long float depending on what you plan on building, but if you are in the Gulf or on the East coast, it’s doable.