Reviewing DeltaSync’s construction estimates on the simple square Concrete Caissons

(Wilfried Ellmer) #57

the baseline on “how to” of construction materials is the concrete canoe competition - even a first semester engineerng student can produce concrete that floats and create a canoe that still floats when full of water…you build a composite material like cement based composits to the properties you desire see more about it here


Octavian; you have clearly evaluated the need to consider the design for the best use of available space on any given Ocean or Bay Platform and it appears we are all finding some welcome agreement on this point. I love it when a group of enthusiast who are passionate and have many ideas about the subject at hand can cooperatively identify the important challenges, seek solutions and arrive at a certain level of consensus for a common cause or project. The open sharing that leads to a deeper understanding of what is wanted and needed at every level of the project within the group as a whole makes it become much more real and attainable!

I also watched the video which provided an excellent ‘Design Model Reference,’ that shows what actually is working already in the Cruise Industry. I think it is smart to take advantage of what is known to be the most efficient use of space and distribution of weight for stability. When the video finished, some related YouTube choices were displayed and I watched this one about Future Cruising, this Ship is scheduled to be built between now and 2020 and I really really love the concept and comprehensive Deep Green Technology. I find it very inspirational!

To which point the Cruise Ship industry can be a design reference for Seasteading

Yes a ‘Team Effort’ will indeed be required along with financing and a Company legal entity by which to operate as a functional unit. I see allot of talent, knowledge and passion here that has real potential, I think there may come a point where it will make sense to start discussing the possibility of organizing a Cooperative Collaboration Company and make a run at a Crowd Fund Campaign. I have several ideas about how to raise revenue for this endeavor that I would like to share with you all as we continue to get to know each other.


As I said to Octavian, I am loving all this wonderful consensus happening here, this is how Cooperative Collaboration between people who are passionate about something begins and grows and self organizes like a Bee Hive. It’s Nature at Work!


Your knowledge on this subject is deep and broad and I want to learn everything you have to Share here even though getting up to speed will take a considerable amount of research. It is awesome the way you always provide links to the knowledge of which You speak. Your like a SeaStead Wiki and I mean that in the most kindest sense possible. You Really Rock It Ellmer! Thank You for all the positive input and dedication You provide here, You keep this site and the discussions upbeat and humming along.


That’s quite a design!! X bow, sailing trimaran hull cruise ship concept! Excellent find Darian.

I totally agree with you that “there may come a point in time where it will make sense to start discussing the possibility of organizing a Cooperative Collaboration Company and make a run at a Crowd Fund Campaign”.

In fact, I firmly believe that point is NOW and I like your idea of a Cooperative Collaboration Company. So if you are ready, lets talk.

FLORIDA - Cooperative Collaboration Company - Crowd Funding Campaign

I like your Enthusiasm Octavian! There are a few different possibilities I have been working on (I have many Interests) and am still weighing the issues for whether to go bigger or smaller on the first Crowd Funding Campaign.

I attended a local Hacker/Maker MeetUp over in Rocklin last Thursday where three locals who did very well on their respective campaigns told their stories about the challenges and successes and for each of them it all just seems to have grown out of their passion and commitment to their respective endeavors. One of them raised $870,000 for his 3d Printer Project.

In my view this Endeavor is about how to make a Good Living out on the Open Ocean, so this will be an important focus for the Campaign that will grab the interest of Our Supporters and Participants. There is much to talk about and I am thrilled that You are so interested in working with me on this Cooperative Collaboration Project.

For now consider whether making a documentary about this project would be a plan You would be willing to participate in. By the Way where are you located, are you in California?

I have some things to take care of again Tomorrow but I will check in as soon as I get a chance and share some more about what I have been considering and also to get Your feedback. Thanks for Your positive input Octavian, it is very much appreciated. Positive things happen when people get together and decide to make them happen!


I am located in West Palm Beach Florida area.

My opinion is that we should start by clearly defining the following:







Awesome, I live by Octavian. I live in Miami. OCEAN PEOPLE!

(Bob LLewellyn) #66

I lived in a boat for a year in Coco Beach. Small world.



What and How are the ‘Core Focus’ of the matter in my view, because as they are defined; the Why, Where and When are integral to personal motivations and this process of collective, cooperative, collaborative group discovery. There is a considerable amount of flexibility in these last three parameters depending on how the Cooperative Evolves and Grows, who and how many join in, and the Feedback from all these Member Participants.

So What: So to begin!

Beautopa Foundation: Facilitation, personnel training and partial financing to fund a Unique Company, structured as follows.

Beautopa spc (CA Social Purpose Company) with a strong mission to make a Positive Social and Environmental impact while earning a rewarding lifestyle on the Open Sea. The physical realization of this project is to be achieved through the affordable access and utilization of a variety of Advanced Digital Technologies together with intelligent selection of materials and their optimum application to smart design solutions.

Once Organized, Built and Launched; The SeaStead Colonies & Flotillas will earn their way with Farming, Energy Production, Tourism, Freelance Makers & Hackers, Digital & 3d Production and a variety of Entertainment as a good start.

So How: This is the crux of it all of course!

I have many ideas addressing how to go about making this endeavor take off with a good launch, and I will be happy to share them with you and others who choose to join in the conversation. I think it would benefit us at this stage to exchange emails so we can engage in a private discussion about these ideas and issues so if we need to work through some things to reach agreement or hash out disagreement, we can do this better through private email. Let’s take it to the next level if You are serious about making the effort because I definitely am serious!

My Business email is

(Wilfried Ellmer) #68

@octavian, @KDarian, please consider that the topics you are discussing here has nothing to do with the DeltaSync thread theme - this makes it difficult to spot vital info …

(Matias Volco) #69

So back to Wil’'s and DeltaSync’s estimates:
A 30m x 90m floating “pool-club” (pretty elaborated though) planned for the waters off Chicago (with some government intervention it seems) would cost 23 million, of course this estimate seems to be for a finished product with a retractable roof.


A fully finished project of this size and complexity could definitely be $23 million. The entertainment complex approach makes allot of sense to get the investment needed and the Community Support. Now I will go check out their KickStarter Campaign to see how well they have done. Getting the online and local Community onboard and excited is paramount to raising substantial funds in the CrowdFunding Space and easier said than done. This project is another inspiration that Big Ideas can and do happen when an ‘Enthusiastic Team’ gets behind launching it. Thanks for the awesome share Matias, very cool!

(Anenome) #71

Geopolymer concrete is the answer.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #72

who gave you that figure that cement would not last longer than 100 years in salt water - this is a misinformatio…

(Anenome) #73

At the same time there’s no Portland concrete that will survive as long as Roman saltwater concrete has, nor its modern geopolymer equivalent. The biggest estimate I’ve heard for exotic seawater-resistant concrete is 175 years. That’s orders of magnitude lower than geopolymer, and surely much more expensive. Meanwhile unprotected concrete may last as little as 25 years exposed to seawater, merely from chemical attack, not even counting spalling from rebar.

One can try to seal the surfaces perfectly and the like, but it’s always a risk to contain a vulnerable center with a skin. The tried that many different ways in sailboat design to create lighter structures, such as with an aluminum honeycomb sandwiched between supposedly water-tight layers of fiberglass, and water always found a way in. Aluminum and seawater do not mix, especially in an anoxic environment.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #74

no this is not what is the “consolidated opinion of marine concrete engineering”

  • the reason why nobody puts a longer service life than 200 years on concrete is simply because there is no sample of modern concrete that exists and can be examinated that is older than 200 years because it was reinvented 200 years ago so nobody can know for sure. Giving a guarantee for something that has not been tested out yet is not admited in serious engineering. But this does not mean that ANYBODY does expect a well executed concrete piece to fall apart after 200 years either. On contrary what concrete engineers expect is that after 200 years of service life the expected amount of damage is so unsignifficant that the guarantee can go on. This is a “world of difference” to “not last”. In fact everybody expects that modern concrete will last similar to ancient roman concrete that is without damage after 2000 years in tested samples. But “if that is truley so” we will only know in 1800 years from now after this long time experiment is concluded.

The idea that the service life has to do with a “sealing the surface” is a complete error of understanding of the mechanics of concrete damage and failure which is ALWAYS a failure in application by the concrete contractor. None of the marine concrete structures has any kind of surface seal because it is unnecessary.

  • to get anywhere near to “as trustworthy as concrete” your material needs to become widley used and understood as “mankinds most used building material” you need to build hundreds or thousands of building sized structures out of it, and then look for 200 years what happens to those structures.

To get marine concrete basics right … please check a basic marine concrete engineering book…like this one.


Concrete has clearly emerged as the most economical and durable material for the building of the vast majority of marine structures. Reinforced concrete too has overcome the technological problems making it a suitable material for the construction of advanced marine structures such as offshore drilling platforms, superspan bridges and undersea tunnels. As the world becomes increasingly ocean-oriented for energy and other resources it is predicted that construction activities during the 21st century will be dominated by concrete sea structures. The performance of concrete in the marine environment is presented here in a logical manner giving state-of-the-art reviews of the nature of the marine environment, the composition and properties of concrete, history of concrete performance in seawater, major causes of deterioration of concrete in the marine environment, selection of materials and mix proportioning for durable concrete, recommended concrete practice and repair of deteriorated marine structures. It is of value to any design or construction engineer responsible for marine structures.

I am not dismissing your geopolymer out of hand but my impression is that you are solving non existent imaginary problems that only exists in your world of “not yet informed about basic marine concrete engineering”…

What new "wonder materials" must bring before considered as concrete replacement
(Anenome) #75

I have that book, actually. Analysis of Roman concrete showed that its seawater resistance was a product of alumino-silicate crystals of a particular kind found to be produced also in geopolymer concrete. So you say we have to wait 200 years to find out if Portland can survive, etc., we already have that data for geopolymer concrete that produces this particular seawater-resistant alumino-silicate crystal.

Geopolymer chemical resistance generally is superior to Portland generally. They’ve evaluated it for ion transport and found it so tightly locked together that the government has considered the material
for encasing nuclear-waste long-term. Portland will always have higher calcium contents than a type-F geopolymer requires, and calcium is its chemical achilles heel, a weakness geopolymer doesn’t share.

Beyond that, the advantages of geopolymer are not merely in the seawater and chemical resistance which are second to none but in the casting method itself.

Because it incorporates water into its matrix rather than shedding it, it doesn’t create offgassing fissures and capillaries in the concrete material as Portland mixtures are prone, no micro-tunneling and the like–giving increased freeze-damage resistance and reduced permeability, which I’m sure you know is an important factor in seawater resistance. And you don’t have a similar risk of cracking if one section dries faster than the other, less than 2% shrinkage in the curing stage.

Similarly there’s an advantage in concrete preparation. For a continuous pour such as I want to do in slipcasting, there’s a herculean effort made by the contractor to get concrete to the site before it cures, etc., especially when building on the water.

But with geopolymer it doesn’t begin to cure until you add the alkali activation chemicals, so you can have aggregate laying around waiting to be used in bulk–huge advantage.

And the cure time can be extremely rapid without any need for expensive additives or the like.

Then we have the flexibility issue–geopolymer is 3 to 5 times more flexible than Portland–very important for a floating structure that will experience flexing stresses from wave action. As for compressive strength, as strong or stronger than Portland, which is important in some scenarios as well for endurance.

And lastly cost, geopolymer being likely lower in cost than the grades of marine-optimized Portland cement you’re talking about, and very nearly on par with ordinary terrestrial Portland cement.

With geopolymer and basalt rebar we have an opportunity to build structures that we don’t have to worry about how long it will take water to advance into its core, rot its chemistry, or whether microcracks will result in a serious problem in time via water infiltration and rebar corrosion, and for which we have the kind of centuries-long results you’re talking about.

So with geopolymer+basalt reinforcement we don’t have to worry about rust at all, we have increased freezing resistance due to greatly reduced or eliminated capillary formation in the first place, don’t have to worry about chemical attack at all due to not relying on calcium compounds, micro-cracking concerns are reduced due to high compressive strength and higher overall flexibility, reduced worry about salt crystallization pressure due again to less capillary and crack formation and reduced porosity overall, greatly reduced permeability overall therefore, greatly improved acidic resistance and thus resistance to micro-organism growth and attack such as Thiobacillus.

Honestly, what more could you want in a seawater-resistant material?

You are all over these forums talking about your building capability, putting yourself out there, and that’s fantastic. What I’m wondering is what concrete formula and curing method you’re proposing, and what rebar do you intend to use? Is slipcasting an option with you or are we talking entirely form-work? Or do you do mortar-spraying too?

(Wilfried Ellmer) #76

scientific fu correct - engineering conclusion not valid -