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(Wilfried Ellmer) #1

picture the lens shape

city block sized ramform

family house sized ramform

lens and ramform combined

lens ramform boat dock

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I’m not understanding any advantages to the ramform design. Since we are not making a ship, there’s no need for a prow. If you want stability, a triangle is the least stable regular form for given area.

I can give one significant disadvantage. Ramforms are ugly.

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(Chad Elwartowski) #3

Ramform is because we are not in a harbor with no waves. There will be waves.

I don’t think they’re ugly.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #4

This is why we have Mati designing stuff he has a better grip on the reasons. The base idea is that once the first of those units are on the water the reasons become kind of “self explaining” to the general public so we do not have to do the base education one by one … It is like in any real estate development you build the model apartment show it to interested people and this is where you sell.

The basic benefit of a ramform consists in the combination of the benefits of a bow in wave handling with the stability of a wide beam.

Wave behavior of non-bow shapes check the equatorian coast guard base videos

That sounds like a not clear picture how beam contributes to “form stability”…check about the ramform


I do not click on offsite links.

I know how a bow works on a ship. But a ship moves in the water. It has a direction, and a keel, and other design features that stabilize the ship when it is in motion. When standing still, a ship is very reactive to waves and not a good living space at all.

How does a ramform help from waves in random directions? Is it designed to always face into the wind? How can you turn a city? Are you going to limit yourself to places where wind and waves come from only one direction? Are there such places?

For wind and waves from various directions, for a sitting platform, the most stable form is a circle, or something that approximates a circle (Octogon, hexagon, square). A triangle is the least stable form in the waves, except for perhaps a long skinny shape which reacts badly to waves on the short side.

Ramforms are ugly. You waste 66% of your outer perimeter denying the view, windows, balconies and such. You limit your view to only 33% of the structure.

Imagine a resort hotel in Puerto Vallarta with 60% of it’s windows covered in concrete. And a resort next to it, with windows that face all sides. Which one would you stay at?

(Wilfried Ellmer) #6

To get a good and contundent answer to these questions the best and most efficient way is you build a model of about 1m size and test it in pool and get a “realistic perception” how the form influences wave behavior…

There are things immensly complicated to explain in theory and very simple to figure out in experiment - just be sure to keep your approach efficient if you pretend to be project designer.

The group that does the base design already has a grip on that - so we do not really “debate a lot” on this anymore…it will be necessary to read up und click a bit on the supplied links - instead of pretending to debate it from cero again - sorry but this is the most efficient process…


If i remember correctly, the company that made that one ramform ship canceled development of the planned second one, and said they’d never build another ramform. Must be a reason there’s only one ever built.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #8

@KatOnTri, - sounds like a disconnected irrelevant and misleading info fragment to me - you might want to refrase and flesh out with relevant info if you want to formulate a “anti ramform hypothesis” for the marinea project…


Will, can you share with us all, on this forum, what you think the advantage of a ramform is as opposed to the DeltaSync proposal (rectangle and hexagon).

I have noted above the three disadvantages that I see; 1 - Limits views for housing units, 2. Not a stable shape for a still platform, 3-Ugly as perceived by online commentators. I’ll add one more: 4- interior space utilization goes down when you move away from boxes; angles create wasted space in human environments.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #10

I can but as we are guest on a TSI forum and TSI took a firm decision to go with the “Dutch Boys” i choose to be a “non pooping” guest and will NOT do that. It would be rude non polite and inconvenient. This thread was not created to “confront and divide” it was created to picture the ramform, one among several options, the ocean colonization movement can choose from.

The final choice will not be made in fierce versus discussions it will not be made in design competitions, it will be made by the markets and buyers choosing among the prestented options. And only between those who make it out of “forum discussion” and get to investor talk.

This whole VERSUS discussion approach is rather a “doodler behavior” driven by a egomaniac ground idea of “who is right” rather than a calm scientific approach of - how can we make progress in respect harmony and clearness of thought to uplift humanity with ocean colonization…

We need to do it right - with the right technology, with the right base culture, with the right alliances, with the right motive…


Will, can you share with us all, on this forum, what you think the advantage of a ramform would be.

It’s not just the dutch boys. If you notice, the entire world lives in little boxes. Boxes are square. For human habitation areas, squares are efficient. Docks are square. For docking, squares are efficient. Nearly all the floating houses I’ve seen are square or rectangular. They follow form and function.

Because the city is not a moving vessel, and because waves and wind in general will come equally from all sides, why would any “directional” design have an advantage?

Please share with us why you think a ramform is efficient.

(.) #12

It seems to me that , thinking out of the box, gets a new meaning.

In the world of boxes everything is made to fit in a box. It looks like
harmonious because a boxthing fits in a box.

Ramform may be ugly. Dome shape might be not so desirable.
I have no objection against these shapes if they work.

The Native American Indian comment about the European houses:
How can they live in that? There is no power in the square shape.

I would just like to go with whatever works.


Then you need a course in reading comprehension, because what i said works well with the post jwliberstead made, right before mine.


Yea, can you please stop doing that? People (not even me!) have given you real reasons why the ramform is a bad idea, and you keep doodling on about it.


Spark I think there is a reason for this. Boxes are efficient.

I owned an airstream trailer once. They look so cool. But what you find is that you can’t put folded clothes in the upper cabinets. The round corner makes it hard to stack things. So you end up rolling your clothes, so you can use the cabinets.

I own a business, and I lease office space. Office space costs you money per square foot. I had an office once that had some angles. I.e. It was not a box. The angles limit a lot what you can do, because you have to custom make a desk, a printer doesn’t fit there, or some other problem. I found I resented paying for square footage that was not usable.

So what I’ve learned over the years is that boxes are efficient. That’s why houses are boxes, and offices are boxes, and whenever a building deviates from the box, the tenants don’t like it.


Will, I would enjoy hearing your calm scientific approach to why you think a ramform is an efficient or practical shape for a floating city.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #17

yes that is a valid base thought for writing a book - but there are other factors to consider when doing marine engineering…


Ellmer, you should yell at TSI, because they are wanting to build a floating concrete box in Conseco Bay.


Wil, I am excited to hear about your other factors. As well as the logic in choosing a ramform over a more traditional shape.

Please tell us. Don’t let us down.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #20

…can’t confirm that (widely erronic unreasonable ) perception…invite you to read the publications available on the subject…