Modular Extension | Connectors | Cellular expansion | Building Technology


#121

No one will, unless it is profitable. I say that as a seasteader right now, I live on a boat.

There are a lot of ways to make money, as a tax haven, floating condos, convenience store (Marinea), tourism, exploration, etc. None of them are very profitable or compelling, because better alternatives already exist.

Tax free, Regulation free, manufacturing, could be extremely profitable. I guarantee the cost is at least 50% less than land based manufacturing. I am not sure if that is valid against China however, it depends on the labor component. That kind of cost savings will get investors to sit up and take notice.

Add in the additional benefit that the manufacturing can take place almost anywhere and there can be shipping savings too, not to mention the fact that If I was to build a boat in Tahiti or any nice location my wife would be much happier.

Once the floating Manufacturing niche has been realized, the gold rush will be on and a boom to rival China’s growth. A side effect will be cities surrounding the manufacturing centers.


(.) #122

Yes, I agree. I think, it is the rubber that breaks down within 80 years.


#124

I never said “so big” Wil. All I said was, and I quote:

"Now, I don’t really have a problem with “rounded hulls”, other than the fact that building them will take more time and cost much more than “straight” ones, mostly in labor.

Assuming the same construction method (steel reinforced concrete) bending rebar, frames, beams, bulkheads, etc. to rounded design specs it’s a precision, time consuming labor. Also, the whole rounded structure will have to be a continuous concrete pour, no way around it.

On the other hand, the “straight” structure could be built completely prefab, at any LOA. Much cheaper."

There is also the case for degree of modularity and “ease of rafting up” when choosing the shape of those “seasteading modules”.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #125

@Octavian | I would not take the discussion of boxy versus round or the discussion modular raft up versus continuous freeforming to a religious plane, where we cast tons of ink on it, without comming to a final conclusion ever.

It is not about A versus B - it is all of it - in a combination that is convenient and economic to build.

The good thing is that we don´t have to come to a final decision by discussion and consolidation here either.

The decisions what methods and proposals are a go and which ones a no go will neither be taken by TSI nor on this forum.

It will be taken by markets, investors and moneystreams who will decide which proposal of ocean colonization flourishes and which goes down the drain. So relax, do your thing, work the markets rather than the heated forum discussions.


If you promote boxy lego style island raft up you should be aware of the destiny of the Mullberry Harbor and the lessions this engineering disaster gave us. You should also be aware why the next project in the evolutionary line the Monaco Floating Breakwater project is 352 m and 175 thousand tons as engineering understood how size matters when rafting up boxy things that move with the waves in storms in close proximity. If you have read up and absorbed that, and still believe in the concept - go ahead and do it - and tell me how it went.

#126

Mulberry Harbor was never intended to be permanent, but the damage you keep talking bad about was from moorings giving way, causing the floating breakwater to become storm driven battering rams.


#127

It’s a conversation, Wil… I am not promoting anything.

I’m just sharing my ideas with the community and I do welcome ALL THE FEEDBACK regarding it, as long as is based on scientific fact not on “belief”.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #128

You got it - i wish you all the best on the marine engineering boards, of all the seasteading projects, you can get funding for…

The oceanic business alliance does not believe in a “single point seasteading future” we believe in multiple project developments and the “project pipeline approach”.

One of our core theorems is that seasteading is already around us in form of yachts, cruise ships, floating wharf infrastructure, and floating marinas.

People will only understand these things as “early seasteads” when looking backwards in time writing up the history of floating cities.


(.) #129

Yes, I can get funding. I have the funds I am planning to use.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #132

Use tire weave to improve the fiber component of a | Richie Sowa style bottle island | to the point to make it “somewhat seaworthy” (in the order of Kon-Tiki)… check the tire weave thread

specificly this post…and the video of "Kon-Creaky"
Used car tires and some pioneer spirit


Postulate: we need to see composite materials in a wide perspective. This is a tire weave boat (fiber component) with light fillers (plastic bottles and styrofoam)


I suggest to upgrade it with the floating rock material mentioned above -

check here:

http://nautilusmaker.com/uploads/default/original/2X/2/2a11300b800e8f8a68674037e07dea3d7525cf09.jpg

… to something that looks less like a floating junkyard and more like a solid island…

…could have an appearance like this - this would not create negative emotions where ever it gets - parked…and its seaworthyness can exceed an ABS approved ship as it is guaranteed unsinkable like a foamblock…


That is definitly something solid you can step on to have the investor phase 1 key conversation…

http://nautilusmaker.discoursehosting.net/t/the-phase-1-key-conversation-this-my-friend-is-the-beginning-of-the-floating-future-of-mankind/282



(Gerd Weiland) #133

Dear Sir, the light weight floating “Junkyard” you mention was a realistic model of an actual floating (Seastead) platform (not a pretty cyberspace picture) in the form of a unique sailing raft which was designed to portray to many school children on its 2000km journey up the East coast of north America the viability to transform trash to treasure, within a comprehensive educational program called C.R.E.A.T.E. (creative responsible environmental adventure through education.) This journey from 1990 onwards ( and i assume way before anyone on this TSI forum even thought about an offshore future) was designed too and indeed not only successfully proved the offshore seaworthyness of totally flexible structures in storm conditions, but furthermore the ability of such structures to absorb wave action to effect stability, which conventional ridged structures cannot, unless you use an iceberg as reference. Your inference that one could “upgrade” this design with the monstrous island rock formations you suggest, reflects your inability to understand the principle of light weight totally flexible structures to afford stability as the prerequisite for a safe offshore Seastead habitat. On What premise do you base such suggestions upon, i.e. that this solid island (or for that matter any of those computer images on your website or this forum) are suitable for anything beyond your wish perhaps to solicit them to uninformed potential Seastead candidates. It may seem to those who actually understand the engineering parameters required to establish affordable and safe offshore floating platforms that you would do well to inform yourself about the actual conditions encountered offshore before you continue to equate safety with huge expensive “solid island” looking stuff which at best very few can afford to test.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #134

Actually i think this ring weave concept can be “one of the useful concepts in the context of seasteading” and i would like to invite you, to show some of your art in one of our projects.

Our group is currently handling, investigating, and testing, a list of about 200 materials among fiber, filler and bonder components in the development pipeline.

The base paradigm is, that there is a technology bottleneck that needs to be solved to make floating real estate “happen on large scale” and “investment worthy”.

We are a bit skeptic about the “messianic material approach” it is not all about tires, it is not all about basalt, it is not all about geopolymer.

Postulate:

Like any City a oceanic city will be built out of a "mix of diverse materials" ....

The predominant structures will be shells honeycomb and truss structures.


(Gerd Weiland) #135

thank you ellmer for your constructive measured response to my “messianic material approach” even though i am sorry this would appear so to be. Indeed you are quite correct that a synthesis of different materials will find due application within a safe offshore Seastead habitat. The wonderful honeycomb designs perhaps within a “Tensegrity” suspension are much better suited in my opinion, to be integrated into a Seastead floating foundation, than the 90’ degree normative prevalent in land based architectural design. However if i may elude once again (without seeming all too messianic once again) to the fundamental engineering parameters, which in my considerable experience represent an absolute prerequisite to establish any sustainable OFFSHORE Seastead platform island upon which or within a multitude of Seastead habitat designs are able to evolve. This is surely the first priority that needs to be considered if we wish in service to others to define a common technological methodology which is safe and affordable (not just for the wealthy) and moreover can be reproduced by any Seastead pioneer without special training. Forgive me if i once again emphisis that not a single Seastead design portrayed on this forum can be or has been tested in context with the offshore Seastead application proposed. In contrast to the comprehensive testing i have subjected Ring-Web Up-cycle homogeneous structures made from Scrap Tires over many years on land and offshore, which conclusively prove that only totally flexible structures are able to provide the neccasary stability for Seasteading development in a dynamic fluid environment. Upon which or within a stable protected environment, proportional to the shape or size a Seastead infrastructure can be established. Of cource any of those expensive houseboats and diverse concrete structures portrayed on the TSI Website could find a calm shelter within the center of a floating breakwater of this design, and survive in an offshore environment. The relatively simple inclusion of mechanical hydraulic power systems to generate electricity from the wave action in the outer perimeter would provide ample energy to power the water pumps to wipe clean the pristine houseboat white side walls from those annoying black smudges from used tires. Or perhaps an electric propulsion positioning system to maintain an offshore position in international waters as the Seastead movement originally requested. Perhaps you consider this more useful information.


#136

Any links to such “successfully proved offshore seaworthiness” claims? How far was Kon Creaky sailed offshore? Any videos of Kon-Creaky offshore in 50 knt winds and 20’ seas?


(Wilfried Ellmer) #137

@Octavian | I think Gerd @ringupcycle | delivered proof to his claims in a reasonable and contundent way - there is no need to question that. He opened a door to a new technology with great personal engagement and should be recognized for that - that would only be fair and we should keep things that way. (nobody does helicopter videos of ships in storms and and all seafaring folk knows that) doing what he did, the seaworthiness and potential of ring weave should be taken as a “proven fact” now.


Actually doing something relevant (building and sailing something that has potential) makes Gerd an outstanding personality in my seasteading universe. He deserves respect.

@ringupcycle | Althogh you made something in the 20m range you can step on i understand from what you said, that you still didn´t have a successfull phase1 investor conversation.

http://nautilusmaker.discoursehostingnet/t/the-phase-1-key-conversation-this-my-friend-is-the-beginning-of-the-floating-future-of-mankind/282

Nevertheless i think you are very close to have it…

I recomend to analyze what did not work out well - restructure the project and discourse a bit (to leave less room for the badmouthers) and make a new run - don´t leave it there, you are really close.


#138

Wil, do not call me a “badmouther”…

A junky raft, “built of 500 auto tires, 20,000 plastic soda bottles, 12 miles of lobster trapline”, floating down the ICW, IS NOT PROOF of, and I quote again,


(Wilfried Ellmer) #139

Opting out of this debate … there is no upside in having it … @ringupcycle has been there and done that - his opinion on the seaworthiness of the structure is the one that counts.


Let´s keep an open mind on anything, and hopefully the development pipeline full of meaningful projects, which advance the evolutionary line of seasteading...

ref. development pipeline

ref. evolutionary line of seasteading


Selection and debate will be done by the markets and the investors it is not necessary to have it on "forums" in fight and opinion groups...
Spitting on somebody elses project is a bad service to the seasteading community...it reduces the willingness of developers to present potentially meaningful projects ...

Postulate:

  • Seasteading is about empower people not talking them down…
  • Seasteading is about forming interest groups to move ocean colonization forward - not fight groups to destroy and ridiculize projects and ideas…


#140

Opt out as you want.

I wasn’t “debating” anybody.

Claims of so called “facts” were presented on a public forum here @ TSI and I just asked Gerard for proof of such “factual” claims.

I didn’t ask for your opinion.


(noboxes) #141

I see nothing to indicate the tires in Kon-Creaky were woven. If i allow each tire to be 10" thick, then 450 of them would make 8 tubular structures 45 feet long, which if stuffed with the plastic bottles, might be used as the “logs” of the raft. However, there’s 26 times as many bottles as tires, so i suspect that the raft looked like Sowa Island from underneath. I also suspect that the raft was flexable, enough to snap the guy lines to the masts if it ever got a decent wave under it. No doubt the living space was a tent because it too had to be flexable, as the deck supporting it twisted and heaved/sagged. I don’t find this to be desireable living conditions, nor suited to open ocean. This is not to say that a flexible interface to the ocean might or might not work, but i cannot believe flexable living spaces, especially a tent on the open ocean, will ever be useable. Maybe parked in a creek off the ICW is the only place it will be. I need to point out that a boat of 2L bottles without tires crossed the southern Pacific recently.
Also, more flexability but no tires…

Car-engineers

DIY%202-liter%20bottle%20boat

tifi-lakersgamelakeside

rtr4yayh


(Wilfried Ellmer) #151

Coding free building technology | a new way of building

A different technology | it is an art | it is a different kind of engineering | follows different rules |


(Chad Elwartowski) #160

2 posts were merged into an existing topic: Floating island of pumice