Maximum depth | tubular concrete structures | hydrostatic load | spheres | oceanic business alliance


#6

I simply asked for a link to the document. Quotes without documentation are useless.

“I can quote anything”- Johnny Appleseed

Jeff Frusha


#7

You mean like you don’t have a link posted to the document I requested, or like you linked to your previous quotes?

Jeff Frusha


#8

Doesn’t download. It’s a military site.


#9

@ellmer This would be a lot better, w/o you constantly insulting others. I asked you for a link to the document source of the quote, you gave a useless link.

You wanted me to document your previous use of the quote, I did. Calling documentation unscientific is… well… unscientific.


(Randolph Hencken) #10

Ellmer, perhaps if you are diligent in documenting your claims, Frusha will not challenge you in this manner. It does seem fair that in a public forum for others to request for you to reference items you state as facts.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #11

the requested study was delivered at this post in two different shapes - as “literature reference line” for a public database search and as pdf download (requires pdf reader - as internet literates know) - nevertheless frusha finds it necessary to bore the auditorium (if there is still any - one migh doubth -) 5 posts more to request it (just to inform us finally that he found it - like everybody else -) - please understand that this scraps my “patiece treshold” for the “intellectually challanged”… especially on a “declared expert thread”… and after reading through 1185 frusha posts - delivering a “unbearable nonsense quote of 95%” - ( my personal opinion) … so i feel a certain urge to ask him politly to butt out of threads I open - offering him not to post on threads HE opens - is that asking too much ? - do we really have to bear with him on any single of the threads - all of them ? - please, please, give me a frusha free space - please !!! - as you see from the post above frusha considers it “insult” to be asked to give me some space - is that sociopathic or what ? ! - how can we make progress - if we dragg that kind of ballast along… it is a quest for thread efficiency and info quality - it is not about frusha in person - and not about his “butt in rights”....


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#12

Per the following portion of the conversation:

http://discuss.seasteading.org/t/maximum-depth-tubular-concrete-structures-hydrostatic-load-spheres/1515/8?u=jl_frusha

It will not download, nor can it be read at that location, therefor it is not a valid link.

Per later in the conversation, I WAS able to find and obtain a copy, so it doesn’t really matter, but what is interesting is that, regardless of your claims for 4 inches of cement, your own ref. invalidates your claim that 4 inches/10 cm of concrete is sufficient for a reasonable sized sphere. To begin in chapter 4, they start calculating at 7.9+ feet of concrete, for a 100 foot diameter sphere, to 2000 ft depth, for temporary habitation, and then the recommended wall thickness goes up for varying safety factors, while they also state problems with concrete absorbing water, over extended periods of time.

That’s the science from your designated resource, not my personal opinion, not any sort of slander or attack on your dream sphere.

Personally, I like the sphere concept, I like the artwork, as well, I just think that reality shows it is not feasible at any scale, much less 600 meters in diameter.

ANY sort of plate-stead would have to be pre-engineered for the conditions it is intended to ultimately face. There is no practical way to bond concrete, such that, say a seastead home with a 4 in/10 cm hull, can be expanded to a 70 meter diameter hull, then to a 600 meter diameter sphere.

For further ref:

“The platform stands on the sea floor 303 metres (994 feet) below the surface of the sea and one of the continuous-slip-formed[3] concrete cylindrical legs (the leg containing the import and export risers) has an elevator that takes over nine minutes to travel[3] from the platform above the waves to the sea floor. The walls of Troll A’s legs are over 1 metre thick made of steel reinforced concrete formed in one continuous pour…”


(Wilfried Ellmer) #13

@JL_Frusha - what exactly in the social concept of “giving me space and not butt in on threads i open” - you do NOT understand ? - why is it so hard for you to “not butt in” ? Why is respect of spaces a concept you do not get ? - Why should i be obligated to answer to nonsense talkers i do not want to talk to. I already answered the question why i do not want to talk to you - your nonsense level is unbearable and scratches my timewaste limit. Please do NOT try to answer to get into a talk - have your talk with somebody else (who is interested in talk with frusha - if you can find somebody who is) in a space you open yourself. Respect that i asked you for respecting my space. ( i will leave it to the auditorium to have its own opinion if the above post should be considered a shining example of a “disconnected truckload of frusha nonsense”.…)

@RandolphHencken - to make progress the seasteading community needs to find a way to cut off this “nonsense overkill” - it shues the investors away … can we seperate the discussions in rooms - the discourse software facilitates this… so each group can have its talks without non desired elements butting in all the time…let me hear your thoughts.


The seasteading forum has 342 users i have declared my non interest talking to 3 of them - along the last year - that leaves me still with 339 users that have potentially something to say that might be interesting - if you are part of that collective - please go ahead… come forward… 3 non desired elements shut up do not butt in. - let’s have a high grade info source and thread progress…



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(joequirk) #14

Here’s why I struggle with the forums. The few members who argue are uncivil. I agree it makes us look bad to investors. Each member who argues also contributes significant value to our knowledge of seasteading. What each arguer has in common is that they are passionate about seasteading and motivated to make it happen. I want those people on our team.

How to capture the value of the arguers contributions without it being sabotaged by the bickering? As a writer of controversial books and essays, I learned there’s only one way: Ignore. It’s easy to scan over rants and irrelevancies and go straight to the contributions I find valuable. It’s also easy to trust the rest of the community is doing the same. Nobody is reading the accusations and counter-accusations except the accusers. People are good at figuring out which contributors they want to ignore. Well over 350 people have contributed to these forums without arguing.

Here’s why it matters: The bickering provides ammunition for the enemies of seasteading. It discourages investors, who know businesses are built on stable relationships and cooperative teams.

Why aren’t we living on seasteads right now? I blame a series of Great Seasteading Setbacks caused by public bickering.

Here’s one: The very day I became enthralled with seasteading at the conference in 2012, a journalist arrived with an agenda. He ignored 2 days of talks about nautical engineering, algae farms, blue jobs, and legal precedents for floating cities. Any discussion of startup countries will involve Singapore. Any discussion of Singapore will cause somebody to mention public caning. None of this was discussed during the conference. Two people among 200 attendees, neither of whom any of us knew, started an argument during the social gathering after the conference. They both became very engaged with proving the other one wrong. Virtually everybody ignored them.

A journalist stood by and took copious notes. His article opened with their quotes about public caning. For months we had to answer questions about why seasteaders support public beatings. Any investor who googled “seasteading” spotted an article quoting statements about caning. You have no idea how much PR work we had to do to push that message off the first page of our google search.

I’m waiting for that journalist to discover these forum arguments. He is actively searching. He showed up at our last public event and asked me questions. These forums contain a goldmine for him.

Somebody annoying you? Don’t engage. Ignore. Trust that the rest of the forum community is ignoring them too. The more you ignore, the more productive these conversations will be.

Contributors, I’m grateful for your formidable research and mindbending creativity, and I’m looking forward to seeing more.


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Picture the Ramform | get invested | get started | oceanic business alliance
Galt's Gulch is on the oceans | oceanic business alliance
Oceanic Real estate | global networking hubs | Extraterritorialized | oceanic business alliance
#15

May I add, it’s also a dichotomy? The artistry tries to depict, but the limits of technology are also part of the struggle. Without respecting technology, then the artistry is merely that. However, when the 2 can come together, and it all falls into place, then the dischord becomes a new melody.

Quite often, I find, my best inspirations and motivations come with strong emotion. Often, in this forum, moments of clarity seem to be preceded by such struggles.

Indirectly, I owe several of my concepts to the push and pull, especially between Wilfried Ellmer and myself. I’ve worked hard on both FLIP and Ramform design concepts. As such, I’m probably as well informed of what they are, as anyone that hasn’t been aboard them can be. Because of that, I’ve emailed with an engineer at PGS (Ramform fleet owners), and even the Captain of the FLIP.

In order for anything to get done, though, the reality of the structural limitations has to be respected, along with attention to detail.

Now, put it into perspective of someone willing to toss some years of my life and most of my income into building one dream, to last the rest of my life, and stand the testament of time as my singular achievement, I know the requirements I face, to build a safe, livable, durable structure, and I fully intend to do so.

If, on the otherhand, I was looking to gain financing to build, then artwork, specs and plans will have to be informed and detailed by the structural concerns. I can’t very well go in and say I want to build a ferrocement barge hull, then go back as say I misspoke, the hull has to be 10 times thicker, and costs 8 times more than you already gave me…

Without the struggle here, I wouldn’t HAVE the inspiration, or sufficient knowledge, that gives me the details to build.

Artwork is fine and dandy, but it’s a long way from a drawing to a fleshed-out concept, and only a tad further to an engineered design. What do we want? How can we build it? What do we need to do it? Where will we build it? Where will we put it?


(Wilfried Ellmer) #16

How can we encourage them to contribute their ideas further and not be shued away along the investors by the few agressive elements that aim to shu away everything that is not “their way”… their only way …

Typical phrases:

This is not a seastead

Why this will fail

You are going down the wrong road

We should develop a culture where this kind of “contributions” are tuned back.


(Bart Kemper) #17

I’m not clear – why is dissent or skepticism a negative contribution. I agree groundless skepticism is of little value, just as groundless optimism is of little value. Both are likely to be destructive.

This is an engineering discussion. Engineers ask question in a manner than layman think are “arguments”. They are not. We test each other’s assumptions, methods, and sources. If one becomes emotionally involved and has bad feelings over the process typical of engineering, it does not advance the process.


#18

Well said. I wish I had the eloquence to put it so succinctly. Would have helped with the original forum, which fell due to the bickering, rather than build on available methodology and documentation.

Jeff Frusha


(Bart Kemper) #19

This is a fairly comprehensive list of the research on the subject. Most of it is decades old.

http://www.hydroports.com/underwater_concrete_habitats.htm


(Bart Kemper) #20

Multiple design data sources should be used. No single design source should be used in novel development, particularly if the design is not in widespread use to reflect a solid body of known usage. Test beats theory, and full scale usage beats testing in terms of a basis for data. Engineering is most reliable when the data from full scale usage is studied and fed back into the field of practice.

Related to that, we need to look beyond simply concrete. Acrylics are used for viewports, and there will be a need for a visual connection. For example, one need for a viewport is visual communication in the event of a power-out failure or a comms failure.

Concrete is porous. It’s just a question of rates. Steel reinforcement does interact with the seawater. The use of advanced techniques such as FEA and CFD is helpful, but it is only as good as the data to apply and the knowledge of the user to establish boundary conditions and to interpret the results.


#21

Most of those are available for free, just a matter of digging. I’ve already used a section from it, to refute the invalid claim for 10 cm of reinforced concrete, as well as giving some of the specs for the Troll A platform, indicating meter+ thickness for the legs, to withstand the 303 meters depth, being to most current model in use, with some of the best engineering available.

My whole point was that even his resource says 4 inches of reinforced concrete will not perform as he has claimed, and that such nonsense can and will get people killed, when they take it as an authoritative stance, and attempt to do something using misrepresented figures as ‘gospel’.

However, the difference is also in the application. His experience and documentation has shown 10cm/4in of reinforced concrete will withstand the depth, but only as a pressurized hull, not an open-top cylinder or spherical structure, at atmospheric pressures, which the artwork indicates.

I am trying to gather supplies to further experiment and develop a Geopolymer formula, that I intend to use in an application resembling Ferrocement, but utilizing composite Basalt reinforcement (preferably FRTP), which will dispose of the corrosion of the iron, and resultant spalling, altogether, and increase the structural strength, for the same dimensional specifications. Basalt Composite reinforcement is roughly triple the strength of standard reinforcement, doesn’t corrode, and should last considerably longer than reinforced concrete.


(Bart Kemper) #22

That basalt sounds good in terms of pure tension, but it is brittle. My concern from my experience is that such a material would be subject to shock loading from storms … the striking of a drum, if you will. Still, the first thing we need is actual loads and stresses, then go through the what ifs. That would be where good FEA comes in. “Striking the drum” does not apply to fully submerged and fixed items as much, but it does for anything topsides.

It’s easy to talk philosophy. The need is to crunch actual numbers and talk about what is or is not feasible based on specific physics.


#23

Basalt fiber is not any more brittle that glass fiber. I’ve seen video of coils being unwound for use. My reason for FRTP is the heat and reshape the reinforcement, in order to set the internal tensions, where they tend to return to the desired shape of the hull, rather than having the spring-tension of all that rebar trying to pull it apart, during construction, and needing to restrain it until the cementation has set. However, that may require having it made to order, at which point FRTP Fiberglass rebar is already available.

Pretensioning the rebar is mainly a matter of having straight-runs to use. For columns, that will be a vertical alignment, and within decks.

Basalt rebar is in use, especially in new highway construction, here in the US, but has been used in the former Soviet Union since WW II. According to @NickGri, there are some basalt reinforced cement hulls, as well.

Jeff Frusha


(Nick Gencarelle) #24

Basalt is not so brittle especially when locked into concrete pour. If your concrete got so bent that the reinforcement popped you’d be in bigger trouble than any rebar would help. Besides I would suggest rebar as only the main superstructure frames and two or more layers of mesh on angle in the concrete with chopped fibers as well.
Also people always test pullout of rebar by putting straight rods in a beam. I would say putting them in an S-shape or zig zag would prevent any pullout from ever happening as the opposing forces of the concrete would deny any movement really.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #25

There is no such thing like a "technical issue" for the use of basalt (and other fiber components) as rebar replacement in concrete. There is no “ongoing discussion” in the engineering world about the topic either. (all necessary studies are made, read and understood by all knowledgeable engineers)

The only reason why it is not used on large overwhelming scale is “coding compliance” (restricted to specialty codes) and “unfamiliarity of many workers” with the material what can cause “administrative complication”.

To get fast progress on concrete composite engineering we need the “code free space of a seastead” to get it done. Coded ambients are rigged to exclude and hinder - new things which are “not code conform” by default… even if they are technologically better. That is what seasteading is all about - get out of redtaping and interference hell - and “achieve freedom on many levels”......


One of the DIFFERENCES between a seastead and the land city a mile away could be that in the seastead basalt rebar is standard building code instead of "specialty code" ( as it is in the land city ). So it is not primarily about things like weed smoking or gambling - it is about "freedom of coding" and "openess of mind" on many leves that converts to a better real estate offer and a competitive edge in general. The [oceanic business alliance](http://nautilusmaker.discoursehosting.net/t/independent-business-alliance-ocean-colonization-oceanic-business-alliance/7522) is targeting this competitive edge with [3 dozend business proposals](http://nautilusmaker.discoursehosting.net/t/investor-proposal-list-seasteading-startup-ventures/382).
[Tom W.Bell](http://www.seasteading.org/blog/) sustains in his interview with Joe Quirk (minute 13 of the interview) that open mindedness and free choice of codes is the key ingredient to prosperity and rapid progress.

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