If you judge by the fact that you will be inside other nation’s EEZ, all of those locations (Polynesia, Cay Sal and Cartagena or off the north coast of Bahrain, etc) are “terrible”. In fact, inside any EEZ location is “terrible”…
If I might ask, this Mysterious Kingdom/Micronation that you and others are trying to built in Malaysia, where is it gonna be “located”?
I would love to hear the reasoning. We have a terrible thread drift habit in this forum, but I for one would really like to see a successful project make it to the building stage and beyond. Debating the merits of EEZ based or not doesn’t help with info on “current Seasteading projects”
I agree that FP s not the greatest location from a real estate developers financial aspect. I agree that the Caribbean is not the best from a micro nation builder’s perspective.
Which of these is more likely to actually build a project that demonstrates feasible, practical ocean living in the next say five years?
Please, Ted, anybody, build something that shows seasteading is do-able! (@tamenta, I understand your history and track record, I’m being rhetorical).
For the rest of us, if we can give an architect or builder some valid input on seasteading motivation, some technical pointers on systems or conventions we have spent years thinking abut, maybe we can help someone with the resources to build, to do something that we would also like to be a part of some day. If nothing else, we see a cool dream come true.
Well, I’m not “trained” or an “expert” in seasteading but I would say that Bora Bora is quite a good location to start seasteading, or actually coastal (close to shore) seasteading, to be more precise.
Expensive to get there, maybe. Depending on the wallet size of the person judging what “expensive” is or not.
Expensive and challenging to build there, maybe. Depending on the project parameters, and most importantly, design and method of construction.
But other than that, I don’t see how it could be “the worst”,…
North Pacific. I can’t give you exact coordinate, but it will be somewhat near Koko Guyot and we observed a strange fishing activity in the area.
It’s fine building inside someone else’s EEZ if you have permission and you do not intend on declaring independence. But if you want to build a nation, don’t build in someone else’s EEZ. They will not appreciate having to redraw their EEZ for your benefit.
If they agree to sell you one of their islands or you have special permission for autonomy, then it’s not a problem. If you really want to go free, you should not build it in or near someone else’s EEZ. That’s why I said we ruled out that location, since from the start, our project is about the eventual creation of a new nation instead of an autonomy or a proof of concept.
Frusha’s project shouldn’t have the same problem as ours as he stated from the start he wasn’t trying to become an autonomous state.
We don’t consider South Pacific as the ‘worst’ area, though. Just a terrible place to start a floating nation. We consider Indian Ocean as a bad place and South Atlantic as the worst.
“Seastead-the-Movie” — I would like by analogy to identify the optimal place to locate a Seastead? This may take several postings and some debate. Assume all else is equal— the size, number of people, program uses, political autonomy employment — the concept is the ideal Seastead. It is a prototype — the first light bulb filament! One day we may refine or adjust the assumptions but for now, it is the ideal For purposes of this logic exercise assume this is Seastead-the-Movie. It has a 90-minute duration and costs $8.00 for an admission ticket. From experience we know a person might drive 30-minute to see this movie. One might drive-hours if there were no alternative. It is doubtful that one would drive 12-hours to see a 90-minute movie. An investor in a film will want the film shown near a high-population 30-minute radius. The time traveled is correlated to the duration of the movie experience. The population is best “income qualified” centers where people can afford the price of admission. This is a movie and not an opera, so the general public is income qualified. This population might be further segmented by age, education and lifestyle. If the movie is rated G there best be many young families with children ---- not a retirement community. I have tested my Seasteading-the-Movie “prototype” in Polynesia, Cay Sal Bahamas and Cartagena. I will share the results shortly. I have not tested the Gulf of Mexico yet as my prototype is much larger than the JL_Frusha’s concept. I can. I will write again Ted
Worst is relative. Bad is absolute. He didn’t say any of them were ‘bad’. Of the three regions, I would consider near Bahrain the worst, but not for economic reasons. I’ve spent a good deal of time in that region.
@tamenta - Please do not attend interruptions and keep posting your thought line… as if anybody would be listening silently (as it should be )
…I am not interested in “random opinions and comments of people who have no experience” - i really want to hear what an EXPERT who has done a billion worth of development has to say and i want to hear it in a “consistent block of information” . Preferable with reference links to dig in on the topic.
[quote="tamenta, post:68, topic:2107"]
I will write again Ted
Please do so before this is dragged off topic as usual...
superlative of bad, ill.
superlative of badly, ill.
most severely or seriously.
"manufacturing and mining are the industries worst affected by falling employment"
the most serious or unpleasant thing that could happen.
I actually wrote 5 reasons why that place is superior to South Pacific. I thought that was already toning it down from the main reasons why we consider that place superior, but I changed my mind. We really don’t want people to know that place is good. We don’t want to convince people that place is good. I’d go as far as to say Beta Site is terrible, please stay away from that place.
So I will just say one thing, there will be no conflict with the locals because there are no locals.
Again, Emperor Seamount Chain is a terrible place. Not a good place for seasteading at all. Stay away from that god forsaken place for your own good.
But yes, there are good fishing sites there. When we discovered the 20+ fishing trawlers in that small area, we thought they were fishing for king crabs, but it’s not the season for that. So we have no idea what they’re really doing there.
I’ve heard the “Seasteading Movie” allegory on June 5th when you first posted. No need to repeat… Lets keep in mind that some people fly their private jets and sail their mega yachts to see the Cannes Film Festival. For some, it’s worth it.
Now, since you already passed a judgement,
and since I already disagreed with you,
I am ready to listen to your constructive criticism. In fact, I was ready on June 5th, one month ago.
“Seastead-the-Movie” — Scene 2 — Imagine Walt Disney decided to build a Seastead ----- the experience he might conceive would be different than the one I am about to articulate — but the method by which he selected Orlando is the same. I am asking the Seasteading community to apply to any Seastead (TSI, Marinea, Cartagena and to my prototype). I have share all this with TSI during the past few months. I have no knowledge of their applying any of this or their current concept. In Scene 1 I offered a brief example of the analysis with my 90-minute “movie” and 30-minute drive time analogy. Here is more of this “gravity model” method applied to Polynesia, Bahamas and Cartagena. First, in my (sea stead prototype) movie theater I have 225 seats. I have 225 people on my sea stead prototype at any moment in time. You may have fewer or more on yours. The thinking of the “gravity model” can be applied to your concept as well. What is important is the number of people, who they are, why there are on the sea stead prototype and for how long. Ted — Scene 3 shortly
Oh, I didn’t think of that possibility. If that’s true, that’s a total kick in the nuts. Unfortunately we don’t have anyone we can send there to ask. I’m really curious what’s happening there. There are even tugboats and cargo vessels there right now.
Larry G: — If you are following my Seasteading-the-Movie narrative — Let me share some of the mechanics of my prototype. Assume I am correct — all-else-being-equal — for the moment 100% of the concept is comprehended and feasible. To be honest, I am not at that point yet — but assume I am. Let us compare a location inside the reef in Polynesia or Cartagena with Cay Sal. I assert I need 25 staff to make the sea stead function. This includes 2 persons / guest room for housekeeping, front desk, repairs, maintenance, kitchens, engineering of the solar and wind etc. Inside the reef at Polynesia or in Cartagena — these people can arrive each day from their homes and family on the main land. In Cay Sal they must be housed and fed. In addition they will want to return to their families frequently (2-weeks?) — thus the cost of labor is increased. I have experience with this in the Bahamas — Johnny Depp and Richard Branson – have an extra cost for an island retreat. I have chosen a trivial point to make the differences more apparent. The big issues is not staff ---- The big issue will be described shortly. ted
There are already people in the “Bora Bora Mall” since “the mall” is already a touristic destination (200,000 people/year visit French Polynesia). “Seastead-the-Movie” is playing in a “theater”, which is 15-20 minutes boat ride inside the “mall”.
The “Bora Bora theater” could be anything,… There could be 50 permanent employees, or 20 or 35, and there could be 100, 150, 200 permanent residents or any combination of permanent residents-visitors up to the maximum occupancy figure. How/why is the number of people so important? Just wondering,…
Still waiting for the argument in favor of “the worst location by far” statement. Nothing here yet.
Ted (@Tamenta), thanks. Some thoughts follow for your consideration:
Point one: operational costs of being remote-
Following the logic so far, and it all makes sense. There is an implicit assumption to call out though. This (what you’re describing) is a resort on the water, not a seastead, not an ocean village. Villages, Towns, Cities, Seasteads have one thing in common for sure: people LIVE there, not just visit. You have posited non-resident labor as a big factor in your costs. In a seastead you don’t house and feed all of your employees. They do that themselves because they live there. You don’t pay transport costs for them to visit their families. Their families ALSO live there.
This is not to say you can’t very well develop an oceanic resort staffed entirely by contract employees on rotational deployments and make it profitable. Sure you can. Cruise lines do it. I’m not even quibbling about TSI’s intention of making politically autonomous seasteads. I don’t care about that at this stage. But if people don’t live there, it’s not a seastead, it’s not a home, it’s not a collection of homes we would call a village/town/city.
Disneyworld may have all of the infrastructure to look vaguely like a city if you squint sideways, but people don’t live there.
Again, you can probably develop a profitable resort with contract labor. It will never have the character that attracts people to care about it deeply, to willingly endure inconveniences to make it work against the odds and raise their children there, it will never have a community soul. It won’t have traditions. It’s not a seastead.
Point 2: Gravity well/watershed economic ecosystem model, and cost vs. reward of the experience-
I was actually using much similar “gravity” logic (although I didn’t call it that even in my own mind, thank you for the explicit model) when looking at Bahamas/Anguilla/Cay Sal logistics. How long does it take to get there, and “can getting there be made part of the experience?” After all, people don’t resent the travel time of taking a donkey ride to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. People don’t resent the travel time of a live-aboard dive trip (generally several hours/day out of a week-long trip), or a Princess Cruise to Mexico. Back before air travel became a commodity, many people traveled by sea, and these vessels had significant activities and entertainment for well-heeled passengers (of course, there were cut-rate “steerage” passengers with zero benefit from the voyage other than hopefully arriving at their destination). For all modern recreational sea travel, the journey is the vacation. Day trips to shore are “extras”.
Hypothesis: If Seastead-the-movie “tickets” included a limousine ride with complimentary champagne, our movie-goers would willingly travel further to see the same show. Twice as far? Three times? I don’t know but certainly further.
For most of the Caribbean and especially the Bahamas, it is reachable in a reasonable amount of time, given a fairly common 2 weeks of “paid time off” (PTO) typical for American middle class working age folks. A combination of fairly short flights with motor and even sailing vessels can get you anywhere in the region within a (maximum) day and a half from anywhere in continental North America, Central America, and probably from South America, although I haven’t specifically verified all of that continent. With 2.5 days travel you can get there from the affluent middle east or Europe. I am including actual sailing time in this estimate, btw, which as I’ve pointed out above can be billed as part of the experience rather than as part of the cost of the experience.
This is still a difficulty for Bora Bora, for sure. I have looked into Tahitian dive trips/vacations and I am turned off by the expense and time involved in air travel to get there compared to Caribbean or especially Mexican destinations. (And I am a world traveler, not a generally insular typical American). More Americans have a passing familiarity with Spanish than French or Polynesian dialects and this matters somewhat as well. Surface travel by ship to FP takes more time than the average US person can afford given our standard vacation allowances.
Point 3: related to gravity model and watershed of customers, from a different perspective-
Once again, bringing up the seastead-as-village concept, there needs to be economic diversity. Resort towns DIE OUT when the economy is doing poorly. Especially luxury resorts. If nobody lives there, and all of the people are either contract employees, commuters, or customers, then it’s a one-trick pony. There needs to be some kind of industry other than hospitality, such as boat mechanical service, commercial/subsistence fishing (not just charter sport fishing), bank branches, farmers (of whatever above/in/underwater type). There needs to be small businesses providing competition and alternative options to resort services (spa, massage, shopping, restaurants).
Better pay/Better benefits/more job satisfaction
More cultural and entertainment opportunities (to bigger cities)
Less commute time to work or less aggravating traffic (away from cities)
Less interference (government mostly, but also HOAs, nosy busybody neighbors or just more peace and quiet)
Healthier/more comfortable climate