Legal uncertainty can be a asset that a good project manager can work in favor

(Wilfried Ellmer) #1

When given a choice a true buerocrate will allways prefer to declare “out of jurisdiction” over “take hostile action”.

Continuing the discussion from Flag pirate vessel thing postulate:

(.) #2

In Florida, USA there are different registrations for a vessel and for a floating structure.
So, there is already a legal definition for what is a floating structure.

Further more, there are barges, that do not have a way of being on the way on their own.
A barge can be a different category than a selfpropelled ship or boat.

And a legal discussion can ensue, and during the legal discussion or argument
somewhere else another seastead pops up, and now what?

Yes, the legal process can be an advantage for seasteaders.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #3

A good lawyer told me once : if things are legally so unclear and contradictory that nobody can extract “legal certainty” just confuse things a bit more and do your thing… :relaxed:
I am being “south american” now - probably. What i get from this threads is that the US seems to be a “legally paralized” society on many levels - seasteading is here to change things.

(.) #4

The difficulty in the USA, I see is, whenever something pops up, someone declares
ownership of it, or ownership of its regulation. Building code are one of the big
ways that housing is regulated within the US.

Some of my friends work and do business in co struction and they are familiar
with the codes. Often I hear them at the code regulation office, that the
code regulation office building is not compliant with the code that the office

So there, building code enforcment is an obsticle within US jurisdiction.
There are enforcers, and they have vehicles, and they go around to see and
find building materials, and to see if there is a permit for the use if those materials.
They also look at recent satellite pictures, and they get some informatio from
the seller of the building materials. One of their favorit trick is to wait at Home Depot
and follow the truck.

Good luck to you and good luck to me.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #5

This is why i expect a lot of good customers for a caribbean seasteading project comming from the US…
The value of a seastead is most of all in “creating a blank page” where new chapers can be written outside the jurisdiction of this “narrow world of coded rule sets”…

(.) #6

And, the building code office has red tape they put around “illegal” structures.
And the building code office has the support of the local court, law enforcement,
and sherif. At a final point the building code will be enforced with guns.
Just like the paying of the taxes. Laws, legal courts, paramilitary units (police,
sherif, national guard) , and jails and prisons.
One can try to make money and not pay taxes.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #7

sounds like you are ready to look for freedom on a new frontier - welcome to the club !


Correct. They will take your land. When they do the same to your boat/seastead, they will take it too. Lets not forget the Lozman event, whatever did or will happen, it’s still unclear, the laws haven’t actually changed, uscg regulations haven’t changed, his home wasn’t seaworthy, they destroyed his home, they don’t pay him back, and he is out $100,000’s for loss of home and lawyers costs.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #9

good point - as a good project manager he would have designed his project for more mobility to be able to move out of the city zone jurisdiction that was his hostile interferer…would have been more economic…than go to supreme court…Lozman is not mentioned here as “example to follow” - rather as “worst case - what to avoid”…when designing a project setup.

(Matias Volco) #10

Ask for forgiveness instead of permission.
I’m South American too and I see the exact same attitude.
In many parts of the World, perhaps most, living in a place gives you right legal rights to it. Squatting rights if you will, are taken very seriously in Latin America for example.
Illegal, now called informal squats (shantytowns, favelas, etc) dominate urban growth, it is impossible to eliminate even part of them or to reverse the problem. So it’s not seen as a problem anymore and the government deems it as its moral duty to recognize those areas and supply them basic utilities. in reality nothing happens and those towns keep growing by themselves.
Floating at sea a city wouldn’t bother or take land (or power) from anybody and would not receive charity either.
Declared illegal (or non legal, as non classifiable) at first, a legal frame will likely be written later as there would be no other alternative: what could the do? Destroy it? Embargo the structure? That could happen to a boat but not to a permanent settlement of people.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #11

@Matias, seems to be a kind of cultural problem. Living in a Latin american culture you just assume that everything that is not “striktly forbidden” is obviously allowed - while US culture seems to assume the contrary what is not allowed by “legal frameworks” must be forbidden by default.

I trace that back to the Enlightenment ideas Bolivar thought a state is grounded on diverse interest groups negotiating their live together in a dynamic process, while the US model is grounded on “a sacred and unmodifyable text code as foundation of the state”

A US raised guy will say You can not change the second second amendment" - a south american guy would say you can amend any amendment with the fiftient’h version of the amendment of the amendment - at any time - so what?

While US citicens would be “deeply concerned that there is no established legal frame for a seastead” a Latin guy would just say ok let’s build it and and write the legal frames then according to what comes up when we know where it leads to and problems arise that call for a “legal regulation”.

(Jonas Smith) #12

Seems like that also includes organized crime, reducing public investment in low-income housing, living in houses that require significant structural improvement and/or lack water and sanitation, failure to build up communication infrastructure, and failure to decrease infant mortality rates.

Oh and it also explains why these “Latin american culture” countries all show negative migration rates (people are all leaving) as opposed to “legal framework” countries which show positive migration rates (people all want to go there).

Parts of the world with high levels of “legal uncertainty” draw a very specific kind of investor…one who most people really don’t want to deal with. The kind who makes you offers you can’t refuse…


Latin America Is World’s Most Violent Region
Latin America Organized Crime: What to Expect in 2015
Housing in Latin America and the Caribbean
Telephones - main lines in use - World
Infant mortality rate - World
Net migration rate - World

(Wilfried Ellmer) #13

@i_is_j_smith, Sounds like you need a more realistic picture of the world … if you want to understand what is happening follow the money not the news… :blush: - CIVETS nations where the investment goes…

(Wilfried Ellmer) #14

consider: if i answer that as it should be answered we enter in a pointless debate i am not going to waste time with…

(Jonas Smith) #15

My picture of the world comes from reputable sources with recent data like the IMF, the World Bank, CIA World Factbook, etc.

You pulled that picture from Wikipedia. The source is HSBC, and the acronym “CIVETS” was coined by Group Chief Executive Michael Geoghegan who mere months after creating the term left HSBC and then, two years later, quit his positions amid US Senate investigations into money laundering.

Since you like Wikipedia so much, this is from the "CIVETS "Wikipedia page:

All of these states also share similar challenges: unemployment, corruption, and inequality are persistent problems in most of the countries of the group.

If by “investment” you mean organized crime, drugs, and illegal arms then I agree with you. Those aren’t the kinds of investments I’m interested in.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #16

this is really pushing point 2 now…


It’s pushing because you are wrong again. Your map includes North Korea.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #18

i never dismiss the possibility that i can be wrong like any other human - that is quite obvious - this is why i do not seek to discuss points in “fight mode” i just make a point and move on according to the cientific approach - may the auditorium decide which point is well made and which nonsense talk…

(Jonas Smith) #19

From HSBC’s own Strategic Report from 2014:

Forward-looking statements involve inherent risks and
uncertainties. Readers are cautioned that a number of factors
could cause actual results to differ, in some instances
materially, from those anticipated or implied in any forward looking
statement. These include, but are not limited to:

other unfavourable political or diplomatic
developments producing social instability or legal
uncertainty which in turn may affect demand for our
products and services;

Here’s a good start if you want to understand how uncertainty affects investment and economies:

High uncertainty and the possibility that new information will change project rankings depress current investment.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #20

we do not really get a “good idea of practical feasibility” when basing things on desconnected texts we find on internet…this is one of the base weaknesses of your approach…