Landluber's Guide to Seasteading Feasibility

(Theodore M. Amenta) #101

I agree. I have learned from you input. I regret I have not responded to you recent module concept – I actually agree. You are more able in this area than am I. I welcome you input. The task is greater than reducing cost and inverting value. The problem with seasteading is no one has proved the “demand” for seasteads and the financial feasibility of supplying this demand — It must also be VERY appealing for humans leave their current living place and relocate. I believe I have found the method to do this ---- T

(Larry G) #102

Indeed, you are correct on every detail of this point. There has been considerable discussion about this in the past. I’ve made the same point- that we must emphasize what is the same, and what is better, not what is different. We can’t expect people to accept a lot of “different” if it is not clearly “better”.

Some rugged individualists will go their own way and pioneer this even if it is difficult and dangerous. Most people will not leave comfortable routine for love, or money, or even if the barn is literally burning down around them.

I think it is possible to give people “fairly equivalent”. This doesn’t mean $30, $50, $100 million in upfront cost. It means about the same comforts and space as their single family home or urban condo/apartment for about the same cost, only in a novel environment that appeals to their sense of adventure or other advantages. It means they have a means of maintaining themselves financially, doing either the same type of work they did on land, or something that appeals to them more but has roughly equivalent compensation and potential for advancement, or something that appeals to them so much as a cause (healthier lifestyle, reef restoration, or libertarian paradise for example) that allows them to justify taking a cut in compensation.

Right now, the wife and I have a monthly expenditure of roughly $1000/month in boat loan, moorage fees, insurance, etc. We have additional maintenance (recently, a LOT of it, thousands of dollars- we bought a used 35’ vessel and had it trucked from Connecticut to Portland Oregon) and fuel expense. We use the boat most weekends, and occasionally weekdays. We also tend to go on vacation, usually once a year, sometimes twice. We’re fairly frugal, we bargain hunt for that, but it’s still a couple thousand for the two of us to go to Mexico for a week or so. For us, an easily accessible warm weather seastead destination with good diving, great food, some minor social life, and moorage for a pleasure boat would probably be worth up to $10k/year if we could use it regularly. It would substitute for most of our vacation time, and some of our local boating time. If we could offer it to friends and family for use, more so.

That’s almost a home mortgage, when you get right down to it. For someone who wants to permanently move to a subtropical destination, and live a different lifestyle, it’s a bargain price.

So there… I ‘demand’ a seastead. At a reasonable cost. :boy:

Thank you, and don’t worry about it. I’ve been thinking about this for many years. I won’t stop thinking about it any time soon. I don’t consider myself more able, I simply have a perspective that I hope is valuable to others in their own endeavors. I appreciate your contributions to this discussion as well, and look forward to seeing you succeed. If I can be of help, I’m always available privately as well.

(Bob LLewellyn) #103

Sports fishing isn’t the only thing offered at sea, you are over looking the one unique thing that a Village at sea offers, freedom. To be able to live your life as you see fit, and not at the dictates of others.

The most popular destinations for Americans are places that speak English, examples, Bahamas, Belize and some of the islands in the Caribbean. Every country that I go to, we always ended up with the English speaking expats in the area. They always have a meeting area and we always find it. They have something that we needed. We speak enough Spanish to get along so its not the language that brings everyone together in those countries.

The forum here is to small of a place to try to figure out just what that mysterious attracting is, but it’s there and I miss it when I am in the states. I seriously believe that we will find that ‘something’ in Marinea.

Marinea has the endorsement of the South Carolina Libertarian Party. Libertarians have already joined the Marinea Project and helped with advice on legal structure. Since Marinea will have a libertarian core, we expect wide support, both financial and physical from that one area alone. Then there are the adventurers. All of them feeling that invisible pull toward our combined destiny. There will be work a plenty and fishing but the first draw or enticement is freedom. Just because we can’t see it, doesn’t mean we can’t feel it.

I am building Marinea to regain my freedom.

(Larry G) #104

Ah, but we could turn on, tune in, and drop out without ever leaving the states.

Lots of people discover freedom through completely and utterly abandoning responsibility. That appeals to me not at all I don’t think one can ever be completely free of impositions on one’s time and Liberty without completely eschewing human interaction. Society is mutual obligation.

Being free to choose which obligations I voluntarily take on and not forced into other people’s self note rested view of what my obligations are… I’d buy into that, but I don’t think we’ll ever be more much more “free” than we are in the US today, with anything approaching the level of comfort and safety and convenience of the civil society we live in.

(Theodore M. Amenta) #105

Thank you for the barge hull shape and hexagon configuration - I also tested this to form my marina – While I believe the aquaculture - fishing - has an economic impact. It is limited in scale thus far. I think I mentioned the studies at Yale and the 20-arcre vertical aqua farm at Branford, CT as supporting possible 4 to 5 jobs ---- but able to feed a village scale community.

I want to refocus on market feasibility. ---- Who will come to live on a sea stead. This number has not been quantified and the character of the people haas not been identified. Either they are wealthy — and do to need to work. Or they are not wealthy and need to work.

(.) #106

But I repeat myself on the risk of being cruel:
Are you willing and planning to live on that seastead you design?


Which is precisely why I have designed my stuff around my family…

(Theodore M. Amenta) #108

I am not able to live in every home, hotel, resort I have designed in the past 50-years. I am trying to formulate a feasible prototype that will enable others to actualize the notion of seasteading.


I think the point is livability. Marine vessels are notorious as cramped spaces, until you get to larger, much more expensive structures, like luxury yachts.

I expect costs for a comfortable space to be is the neighborhood of luxury home equivalents. As a DIY, I still expect my Ramform concept efficiency apartment like layout to run in the neighborhood of $150 per sq. ft. However, using my own specified materials, it should retain value better than a standard, visually inspectable only ferrocement hull. At the same time, I have tried to generally comply with AHA guidelines, since I have been confined to a wheelchair before, and have friends that are generally confined to them.

Until I can make a model and do testing, I won’t have enough data to say how it will behave, but it does follow the parameters of a patented proven design, which is used in the North Sea, some of the roughest storm waters on earth.

(.) #110

Thank you for the answer.

(Bob LLewellyn) #111

[quote=“spark, post:106, topic:2392, full:true”]
But I repeat myself on the risk of being cruel:Are you willing and planning to live on that seastead you design?[/quote]

Yes, I have lived at sea before so I have a pretty good idea of what is needed and have a few back ups to most things that can go wrong. The sea is actually safer than land. Where do you go to hide from nuclear fall out? Water will protect you better than anything on shore. Tornadoes? None at sea. No forest fires, droughts, insect born illnesses, earth quakes or tsunamis. The only concerns is wind and waves and we can design to account for those.

But for the design, I trust tamenta. You would have to be pretty damn picky to question his credentials. When you have a virtual “who’s who” of the architectural world willing to share what he knows, I for one am willing to listen.

(Theodore M. Amenta) #112

Can I ask for you all sample survey? I am continuing to draw a “prototype” of a sea stead. It has a first phase of 100 residents. 10 - 20 are transiency guest in a B&B; 25 are employed to work in the B&B, restaurant, fitness, suitable amenities (dining out, grocery, etc. That leaves 65 who are resident.

Question 1 - What percentage will need to work? I elect those who work will earn between $50,000 and $100,000 / year in AquaCulture (fishing, sea-based vertical farm and other) . I will share the What percentage will not work or be independent? In my prototype 80% work.

Question 2 - What is the size and price point of the residential units? I propose the 60% studio and 1-bedroom, 30% 2-bedroom and 10% luxury. Understand we together are too small a market survey, statistically. However you and I are actually focused on this. I will produce a wider survey later. Thank you. I will share the output. Ted

(Theodore M. Amenta) #113

Market Feasibility is little discussed. Who visit and lives on the prototypical sea stead? In the absence of a survey response, are there thoughts on 1.) “Day-Trip” visitors? 2.) Overnight transient guests, 3.) Occasional repeat visitors (second homes in rental program) and 4.) Permanent residents staying more than one year. Are there any thoughts?

Critically, how is this affected by location? Polynesia versus Marinea Cay Sal Bahamas ---- two ongoing “work-in-progress.” I am testing this prototype in both locations now. Ted


(Bob LLewellyn) #114

From my days as a realtor I can say location is everything. Lets look at day and weekend trips, not in the Polynesians, likely in Marinea which is 90 miles south of Florida and 40 miles north of Cuba. Logistics plaid an important role in selecting a site for Marinea, while I am having a little difficulty in seeing the financial strategy of choosing French Polynesia.

Also TSI and Marinea are doing different things. This is why TSI and Marinea projects are not competitors but allies. TSI is going for the big bucks and its out there, I think they’ll get it, but Marinea is people driven. If the libertarians and other freedom loving people won’t support it, it won’t happen. As of now however, it looks like they will support it, so now we work on communications to reach a greater audience.

(Theodore M. Amenta) #115

I am preparing a “market feasibility” that compares a phase 1 sea stead of 30-residents plus support facilities and services. The program is a synthesis of the Marinea Project in Bahamas and the Blue Horizons sea stead in Polynesia. It will be a prototype of my own design but emulate the two projects in pre-development. The prototype permits one to evaluate and compare the two locations — As one says in rap estate — “location, location, location.” Curiously Seasteading Institute commissioned an analysis of preferred location in 2011. The criteria is different than ming but the conclusion is the same. I hope to provide more shortly.