Is 45% the earth's surface a state-free society of emergent law?


(John Frederic Kosanke) #89

In the legal realm, this can be accomplished by formal demonopolization of the justice industry. At sea in particular, this means the promotion and regularization of agreements such as COP.


(Matias Volco) #90

Might the sea be the only (or closest) place to set different jurisdictions without clashing with existing territorial jurisdictions?

Physical morality does not imply territoriality.


(John Frederic Kosanke) #91

COP is a perfect example of a non-territorial jurisdiction. Since landlocked states inherently violate COP, it demonstrates that “seavilization” is the best alternative.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #92

The example of classification societies also sheds light on how “non territorial jurisdiction” can work without clashing - each of the classification societies work worldwide but they are naturally limited to the collective of their members. Their come along is “friendly and and colaborative” instead of “conflictive” a welder who is certified with ABS can work on a job that is overseen by GL and his qualification will automaticly be recognized as “equal good” by a GL surveyor. Therefore a welding job performed by a ABS specialist on a GL ship will get a GL quality approval in its “repair book” without any problem. Equally any territorial state official (like a Coast Guard officer) will recognize a GL, ABS, Lloyds, certified repair as a “perfect safe and final repair” inmediatly and allow a tanker repaired along those guidelines entrance in a national harbor as a qualified and safe ship.


If you think it trough there is no way to do it different than “recognize each other mutually without problems” - it is the only way of politics that keeps the ships safe and moving . [.] (Mobilis in Mobili the factor of oceanic mobility a key for freedom ).The come along of ships and the rule sets that regulate them is driven by the economic interests behind them not political motivated laws...



(Gordon Hoffman) #93

If a Seastead were to be hovering over an area and discovered stuff below (maybe an ancient shipwreck), would one be free to reclaim the stuff or would have to try to find an original owner?


(Gordon Hoffman) #94

I guess I should have asked that last question on the thread of deep sea mining.


(.) #95

I think, it is OK.
There were some shipwrecks found lately. I think the ship sank in th 1700s and
it was a Portuguese ship with large amount of gold. Portugal claimed the gold,
and the gold was returned.
When I find gold, I will keep it without telling any government. This might be a standard
practice that we do not know about because of obvious reason.
This might be an emergent law of the waters.

By the way, I think, the easiest way to get gold out of the waters is
at deep underwater geothermal vents with electrolysis.

Is anyone in?


(.) #96

I think, there are laws of human behavior, and these laws needs to be discovered, not made.
There is such a thing as finding value somewhere. If a value is lost and not recovered
for centuries and someone finds a way to get it. The recovery takes effort. Many people
claim the value but not willing to make an effort to get the value.
It is counter productive to take the value away from the person who produces it.
At that point the person who makes the effort may go on strike.
Sounds familiar? Ayn Rand: Atlas Shrugged.

The person might still make an effort, but it is going to be a secret.
Even keeping a secret is a secret.

This might be a natural law of human behavior. It is defined already.
This also can be written down.


(Matias Volco) #97

Since you mention it,
The Secret (of the League) does sound familiar as the book that inspired Atlas, of course that is a secret that is kept secret


(.) #98

You might be on the path to know something.


(.) #99

Emergent law: one is the International Seabed Authority.
USA never signed. “Deep sea mining is legal, and opened to all…”

And electrodes never have to touch the seabed. Just whatever in the
water column.
Electric current fed by solar panels on the surface. The only problem
is the 2000 m long wire. Transmission with wires from surface to
deep sea region is not easy. It probably has to be AC and high voltage,
up conversion at surface and down conversion to DC at electrode level.
Meanwhile the cable has to be able to carry the current in the chosen form.

Some electric power transmissions the voltage and the frequency is standard,
and the cable has to be chosen to get less than 5% power loss.
The higher the voltage the better. So 12V DC with a standard converter to
110V AC, or better with a European converter 12V DC to 230V AC.

What would be the cable dimensions (diameter) for a 2000 meter long cable
to have less than 5% power loss? What would be the size of a boat like that
to carry a cable like that? Would the electrolysis work? And would I tell it to
anyone?


(Gordon Hoffman) #100

Might be easier to lower a battery down to the work site. I’m not so interested in gold but it would be interesting to see it work.


(.) #101

Off topic:
Lowering a battery or batteries is a good idea.
Deep sea geothermal conditions might be difficult on a battery.
The electrodes can be lower than the batteries.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #102

not only is “non territorial jurisdiction” working perfectly well at sea, we also see already indicators that the whole concept of states and territory will fall apart on land too… a perfect example is the “Singapore landfill venture” creating new facts like “liquid real estate”… the whole idea of the grounded national territorial state is falling apart…as new technology for global networking and offshoring of financial assets and interests become available. The subdue to nobody model is emerging globally.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #103

Transparent rule sets and openess of mind key ingredient for prosperity (Ref. Dubai “choose your law”)


Earth population is [3 times the sustainable level](http://nautilusmaker.discoursehosting.net/t/current-population-is-three-times-the-sustainable-level/7861/1) now - [only ocean colonization can save us](http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t58921987/sustainability-population-growth-consumption-growth-ocean-co/ )...
seasteading is not a "lifestyle choice" its a "[survival need](http://discuss.seasteading.org/t/current-population-is-three-times-the-sustainable-level/1585)" ...

(Wilfried Ellmer) #104

One of the economic bases of this state-free society might well be a new form of open ocean aquaculture as outlined here.


(Paul Schafer) #105

Yes, the report should be on a need to know basis with whom you have enlisted to help and have already hired to protect you. The defense company does its job in the case of this crime. With any conclusions tortfeasor sounds like a great resolve. The process seems to be in order and all concluded solutions are not in murky waters.
With this ideal resolve of a crime, in my ideal non governmental seastead I would hope there would be more than sufficient effort in order to solve a crime before it happens. With mental health at the forefront of stupid incidences of tragedy in today’s society, I feel there is a lot to do to solve issues before they become problems. If a want to be utopia type society is to exist an overloaded focus on well being probably comes first. So, a “they needed it worse” ideal can work. But only when no one feels they have to use aggression to get there way. Hopefully, those crazy emotions working in a way to breakdown this society have no place to thrive.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #106

@joequirk | your thread entrance question should be reformulated to a seasteading base paradigma.

A state free society is already flourishing at sea on many levels .

• The “de facto examples” are all around us.

• The old Enlightenment Movement Questions are on the table - again…

Do we need kings?

Can people govern themselves?

What rights do we all have?

Can science and understanding uplift all of humanity?


international rules of come along overrule US national ruling on US waterways - who implements ? the logic of practical implementation ... [example from practice](http://nautilusmaker.discoursehosting.net/t/international-rules-at-sea-who-implements-who-enforce-them/7733)... all national rules are toothless even on inland waterways they can not be implemented and are dead law by default...

(Matias Volco) #107

that is why a canalboat apartment is the most liveable option for large European cities

If only there was a way to extend this family and work comfort to the seas without incurring in superyacht cost.


(joequirk) closed #108

This topic was automatically closed 100 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.