How remote is deadly remote for a seastead | oceanic business alliance

(John Frederic Kosanke) #2

A citizen stock ownership plan would give a piece of the action to the 56 current citizens, and set the stage for the colonization of the entire EEZ - including the two atolls that provide natural breakwaters for a flotilla of small vessels and basic floating structures. There are also two shallow sea mounts upon which stationary platforms could be constructed.


The truth of the matter is that buying an uninhabited island and negotiating for political autonomy is the cheapest way to get into seasteading. Everything else will cost a fortune.

(John Frederic Kosanke) #4

Hawaii is remote, but doing very well. There will be some inconveniences at first, but autonomy is well worth the trouble.

(Jonas Smith) #5

I wouldn’t consider Hawaii “remote”. It takes the same time to fly to Hawaii from San Francisco as it does to fly to Florida or New York. And it is on all the regular cruise line routes.

One big consideration when thinking about remote locations is the data infrastructure. You going to live without cat videos on the interwebs? Not me…so if going without that is what you consider an “inconvenience” then count me out.

(Jonas Smith) #6

And if you think remoteness gives any chance at autonomy, just ask the folks from Ruby Ridge…

Nations are very protective of their land and their laws. You might be able to skirt the law due to your remote location…get away with a little bit of moonshining or pot smoking…but be warned that if you push the envelope too much they WILL come down on you hard. That is not what I consider autonomy.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #7

comming back to the example of Pitcairn - if you are in a situation of being disconnected from the oceanic trade superhighway and can not even attract population giving away land for free - the young holding the future moving out in search for opportunities - politics and gunboat diplomacy is probably the LEAST of your problems…what “comes down hard on you” is not “hostile nations” - it is the “toxic dose of remoteness”. Pitcairn is deadly remote - while Venice with a shore distance of only 200m is thriving for 1500 years - this should tell us something about “the correct dose of remoteness for a seastead venture”…

Some questions about self-sufficiency and costs
Marinea the project
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(Jonas Smith) #8

The “correct dose” is what is best for the people living on the seastead.

There are some people who don’t want to be part of the “oceanic trade superhighway” and just want to catch fish and relax in the sun all day. Folks like Ron Falconer, who actively sought out remoteness so that he could escape the trade superhighway.

I personally don’t see the appeal of that, but it’s not for me to decide how toxic remoteness is.

You need to first determine the purpose of the seastead or floating platform or whatever, and then determine if your location is suitable for that purpose.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #9

sure, i have one for Pitcairn on my investor proposal list (proposal 8.7) Assisted living community pension plan.

(John Frederic Kosanke) #10

The existing infrastructure supports the current population on the main island. Add a sustainable seasteading community and you have the potential for a Hawaii II. At some point a floating airport could be added, so accessibility is not necessarily an issue in the long run.

Oh, BTW, Pitcairn already has Internet, so you can keep your cat videos :wink:

(Wilfried Ellmer) #11

the problem is not the technological feasibility - almost anything is feasible - the problem is to get enough investors on board to make it through the early steps - especially the investor key conversation getting a good argument why this is NOT pointless in the context of “ocean colonization” …what needs to be done to start a city in the middle of nowhere check the example of Las Vegas…

floating airport for Pitcairn - desafortunatly can not deal with big ocean waves

Mayor upfront investment required…hard to get…return on investment doubthful…

(John Frederic Kosanke) #12

Las Vegas is an excellent example of the process. This megalopolis in the middle of a desert was made possible because it was an oasis from gambling and prostitution laws. Likewise, the attraction of seasteading is autonomy and self-determination. Politicians are notorious for their unreliability, so, while retaining an umbrella under existing regimes is fine in the short term, the seasteading movement must at some point sever itself from such dependencies if it wishes to avoid stratification.

(.) #13

About the Pictarina islan from wikipedia:

Of the hundreds of emigrants contacted, 33 were willing to participate in the survey and only 3 expressed a desire to return. This may be partially attributable to the 2004 sexual assault trials which has caused many emigrants to be ashamed of their Pitcairn heritage. The

The once-strict moral codes, which prohibited dancing, public displays of affection, smoking, and consumption of alcohol, have been relaxed in recent years. Islanders and visitors no longer require a six-month licence to purchase, import, and consume alcohol.[80] There is now one licensed café and bar on the island, and the Government Store sells alcohol and cigarettes.

(.) #14

That is toxic. Probably like Toxic Parents (Susan Forward)
Sexual assult charges and child abuse charges. Sexual abuse of
children, their own children on a remote island 3000 miles from
anything, and the Brits still enforced their laws. Good for the British Law.

But, now who wants to live with the convicted felons on the same island?
Those felons cannot go anywhere because no country will give them visa,
or allow entry.

Poetic justice.

The abusers will grow old and will depend on the kindness of their own victims.

Good luck.

(.) #15

I spent 2 years in the green felt jungle.
Finally, I left Las Vegas.
I am not interested in gambling nor in the other stuff (pro).

(John Frederic Kosanke) #16


This particular floating airport can withstand just about any natural catastrophe. Few structures can withstand a tidal wave. But, as you say, technological feasibility can be upgraded. A 3Km tidal wave ready port could be built when the time comes. For now, a Centaur 2 seaplane could increase the number of trips and shorten travel time considerably. Its range is 750 nm, which is about one round trip from the big Totegegie airport. Price: $170K.


Las Vegas is a great example of a border region success. It gains the benefit from being a) Not in California therefore not subject to California taxes, and b) Being 5 hours drive from the largest city in North America. I.e. you don’t even have to fly there. 16 million people can get to Las Vegas for less than $50 round trip.

Similarly in my hometown of Portland Oregon, we have an adjacent city Vancouver Washington that has no reason to exist. Very little industry and nothing more than a bedroom suburb. Except for the fact that the tax bases are different so people move to Vancouver to try to play a low-tax game. (Washington uses a sales tax, and Oregon uses Income tax, so people in Vancouver establish Washington residence to avoid the income tax, but shop in Oregon to avoid the sales tax.)

This suggests that the most successful seastead would be within an economic zone, but slightly outside, an existing regional center, as some sort of tax shelter.

So perhaps Cayman Islands or Isle of Jersey is a better area to look at than Pitcairn. For eCommerce, it is useful to be in the general time zones of your customers. South Pacific is not. Central America is Eastern time. Atlantic locations are close to European time.

Floating airports are a pipe dream. The cost of running the facility would be prohibitive on a small community. Best to use an existing airport that someone is already paying for, and find a way to shuttle to it. There are daily flights to Tahiti from the US, but they are as expensive as going to Paris. Honduras from Miami is 1/3 the cost. So is Jersey from UK or Amsterdam.

One of my favorite ideas is to anchor off Point Roberts Washington, with a treaty with Canada. This puts you within 100 miles from two major cities, in an area where boating and floating houses are common. The climate is temperate, if a bit cool, but the scenery is great. A tax haven in this location would be popular. The only real problem is that somehow Californians have a hard time adapting to the 300 days of cloud cover per year. The sun is bad for you, you know. :wink:

(John Frederic Kosanke) #18

It’s not an either/or proposition. Many seasteading communities will form, and they will consist of both near-shore and international water communities. TSI has explored the advantages and disadvantages of various locations. I have no doubt that a remote location is feasible. Further, a stateless community such as Aquia can only reach its full potential in international waters. If the colonization of the moon and Mars is on the table, certainly autonomy within the Pitcairn EEZ is doable. The ocean will be teaming with seasteading communities long before space colonization takes off.

The ocean will be teaming with seasteading communities long before space colonization takes off
(Bob LLewellyn) #19

That’s not necessarily true. There are old aircraft carriers from different countries around the world just mothballed and getting further out of date. Some of these old ships are sunk to create new coral reefs. If the Navies are willing to donate the old ships for that worth cause, maybe they would be willing to donate one to Pitcairn as a humanitarian gesture.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #20

the problem is not technology - what is hard to achieve is a USD billion upfront investment for a remote location like Pitcairn

(stephen russell) #21

Remote worries:
Host nation nearby has strife, riots
Other nations order Embassies closed, tourists leave
Piracy to take Islands.
Trade cut off
No support nearby
Internal Island strife due to no trade, food?

& esp in these locales
India, Thailand, Java, Mynamar, China
E Africa, Mid East.