Follow the money


(noboxes) #62

I believe this was @JL_Frusha’s plan also. Altho i see no reason that offshore mooring locations for transients couldn’t be serviced just as well. Technically, such a service would not require waterfront land, a public boat ramp could be enough. I suggested this could be a plan for retired legged oil platforms. The key part of the solution, as i see it, is enough land to safely park land vehicles and trailers on long-term, plus dedicated service and on-water delivery. For building a seastead at sea, you still need a spot on land to collect and stage out the materials. Such a place can also be useful to collect people, mail, and parcels.


(Larry G) #63

[quote=“noboxes, post:58, topic:3386”]
The garden! The garden! It’s sad that urban areas are not set up so people may have garden space to do the most basic been-done-for-10,000-years feed themselves without regard to a for profit grocery store. Part of some people’s desire to have a garden on a seastead is because of this “food insecurity” on land where they are now. [/quote]

So true.

Not really. Charitable organizations have a long, long history. But charity is a stop-gap, not a strategy. And this is a major part of the problem with believing taxation (welfare) could solve poverty as well. You have to invest to have surplus, you can’t eat your seed corn and expect to thrive over time.

People may not have a culture that prefers to starve, and they may not say “I renounce wealth and vow to be poor” but nonetheless, certain cultural practices and poor choices inevitably lead to these outcomes.

[quote=“noboxes, post:58, topic:3386”]
PPS: I live in an area where gardens are so white trash. And solar panels are stealing from the power company and make you immoral. And having a burn barrel smoking 24-7 is the norm.[/quote]

Stupid choices and a low class culture. Classic examples.


(noboxes) #64

They also usually have a list of reasons to not help: “they drink”, “they don’t do laundry every week”, “they cannot drive to the church to fill out the applications”, “they have XYZ disease”, “they have been homeless too long”, “they are gay”, “they are married and have kids”, “we do not service that area”, etc… I have also heard (paraphrasing) “we do not allow black people in the church, and no, i cannot bring the application for assistance outside”. Incidently, locally, just this year, there are two christian ministers in jail charged with multiple counts of pedophilia and other sex crimes.

But i am locked into this also. I do not do as they do, i do not think as they do, i do not speak as they do, and i don’t associate with them. But here i am.


(bill mapezzi) #65

Noboxes - What is this steel “hull” that you you make? How does it compare to a free used tire pontoon style houseboat in cost and seaworthiness?

ForEx Bob - How about concentrating your efforts away from getting “15 million” start up, and use Cay Sal Island itself as the “barge”.(hurricane refuge,breakwater). And Instead, maybe $500,000 or so,on funding for a 75 foot power WIG (catamaran,70 knots,50+PAX, community owned RV, daily round trip), and a 90 ft supply ship (also catamaran,200+ PAX, diesel electric catamaran,10 knots, community owned RV,weekly round trip). This should support a community of 1000 people, assuming 50 or less of them have jobs. It could import food stamps and export seafood and be very profitable (to the community ROI%, not bottom line).


(noboxes) #66

Sorry, i do not have a working definition of what that is.


(bill mapezzi) #67

Well, I dont’t have a “working” definition either, only a 99.999% workable description. It consists of 1024 used tires, diverting $1024.00 of tire disposal fee into the purchase of 1800ft2 of EPDM 1mm rubber liner($270 imported from China), 4400 lineal feet of polyester strap (uline 5/8" 35mil 1400lbs “working strength” $110), 13500ln ft of polypropylene strap (uline $66), that leaves $500 or so for nylon tents,air mattresses, salvaged(DIY) solar panels,batteries,small reverse osmosis desalinator, some hooks and line, etc. Could get a lot of this stuff and more in one 20 foot shipping container and get 75% off (everything but the EPDM(already discounted )) ordering for 100 yachts at a time. That is “free” or $1000 each 57’ x 20’ pontoon houseboat if you can’t recover the recycling fees.

Te construction is simple, straightforward. 2 sets of 3 used tire tubes consisting of 84 used tires (same overall diameter) strapped together, sidewall to sidewall , with the polyester strap, 57 feet long. These set of three tubes are the “bundled” together and wrapped in a single EPDM liner with seam on top in a “rounded V” shape. The two overlapping ends cinched together like a loaf of bread. 20 single tire tubes of 26 tires each (with/without a cheaper plastic wrapping, described without) lashed with the polypropylene to the two pontoons form a bridge between the two. The remainder of the poly strap is woven into a 16’ X 45’ support net for a 720 ft2 used white vinyl billboard “floor” ($80) or 24 sheets of 3/8 painted ACX plywood($400) or combination, or many other cheap options. There is no building code at sea and anything over $5/ ft2 is silly considerig you can have a 2 story 1000 ft2 pressure treated bamboo nipa hut built for less than $1500 dollars in Vietnam or Philippines, or maybe $3500 from Cay Sal Construction LLC.:upside_down_face:


(.) #68

The rubber liner is a good idea. The rest of it are good ideas too.
I would think.


(bill mapezzi) #69

The $80,000.00 90 foot supply ship is very doable ( I can do it 1/2 that or less Philippines ) . The $220,000.00, 50+ guest 70 knots wing in ground effect hydrofoil catamaran is out of my league but seems rational considering WIGs get better fuel burn/PAX mile than airplanes. A 10 passenger Pilatus PC-12 gets 50 mpg (per passeger + pilot/co pilot/flight attendant) and an ATR-72 get 100 mpg/pax at 5 times the speed. But in effect slower overall time considering security checks and baggage claim. The tips of the hydrofoils would be highest tech super cavitation resistance NEGATIVE lift foil section to guarantee the airplane engineered vessel remains a yacht, otherwise they take off and land perfectly everytime just by speeding up/slowing down, no pilots license required. Need cheap takeoff power? Compressed air water rockets. The twin fuselage design gives perfectly sea worthy forced landing capability and a more stable base for a huge low speed wing. 10lbs/ft2 or so.


(bill mapezzi) #70

Hi Spark, I figured out how to remove your ID from BoatDesign.net. Just get yourself “banned” for pointing out that the boat industry hores that own the site are not very knowledgeable and have a thinly veiled agenda that attempts to discredit any design that doesn’t generate money or press for their “politically correct” agendas.


(.) #71

I just did not want to instigate and play games there.
Best regards;


(noboxes) #72

So it’s a really flexable moves-with-the-waves boat, and the 3/8 plywood deck gets broken up into delaminated splinters during the first storm, and you cannot have a hut with solid walls on the pontoon boat because the floor won’t hold still? And it smells like old tires? And if you hit a sharp rock the 1mm EPDM is torn and the pontoon is filled with water?

No thanks.


(.) #73

They have a special agenda, and needs. And they use that site for their commercial purpose.
I would not want to interfere with any of that. So I started a topic: “How do I delete my account”
And the moderator responded to it very well.


(bill mapezzi) #74

It is not so flexible that it conforms much to the shape of a wave, certainly less than steel ships (absolute deflection measurement), as the tubes are not loaded at anywhere near the weight of a 1000 ft ship. It is my educated guess that the whole craft would survive being tossed into the air 50 feet, flipped upside down by the wind and land 1/4 mile away from where it left the water and still be 100% intact. Polyester strap does not stretch,so when the tube wants to bend it is resisted by the pre compressed rubber in the tires. How flexible is a slightly underinflated semi truck tire at 80 PSI ? Because that is about the rigidity of the tubes strapped with 6 loops (12 strands) of a combined breaking strength of 180,000 lbs (10 times the “working limit” of those straps). Now I would use 18 or 24 loops if I was designing my own 60 knot RIB to power through big choppy seas at 70 knots, but at a pontoon boat the “scantlings are already overbuilt. It will fly long before it would snap. The 3/8 ply deck is suspended and tied individually to the flexible net of polypropylene under it, so they are not going to be under any stresses. Sure the 20 bridge tubes, almost as nearly as rigid as the tripled together “pontoons”, are designed as flexible connections but they are lashed across the 4’6” wide pontoons on each end and have an unsupported span of 10 feet and they are spaced 3/4" apart. they flex a “bit”. You’re are correct there, No sliding glass doors, and no $28.00/ft tract homes (sold for $100-$200/ft2). I said “free”. The tents or nipa hut would have no problem with the minor flexing as the are both capable of flexing more than the deck.
If you want a “solid feel” I suggest you go the next size up- 80’ x 40’ tri-hull, 5400 used tires and. You have $5400 budget now and can still finish the boat “free” but you would want (2) 48ft aluminum shipping containers ($4500/ea FOB Dallas,Tx), centered on the outside pontoons, and 1200 ft2 of porcelain tiles laid on deck over the 3/4 plywood between the containers with rubber adhesive and grout. Now you have 90 tons displacement and payload of 35 tons as opposed to only 16 tons displacement and payload of 5 tons on 57 footer. More solid “feel” but ultimately not quite as strong, Super direct hit hurricane might "peel your floor…who knows…its just less material supporting a greater weight %wise. A sharp rock is going to damage most yachts a lot worse then than a rubber hull. Original design wouldn’t necessarily FILL with water, a hole below the waterline would stop filling the hull, because of trapped air and remain a foot or so out of the water. Put plastic bottles or 3 cheap pvc inflatable tubes inside the tire tubes if your worried. Easy repair, and next time don’t go reef hopping in a rubber lined yacht just because you only have 2 feet of draft.
I’m also assuming most everyone goes ashore on Cay Sal Island regardless of “customs/immigration” in a direct hit hurricane and the yachts left to flop around in deep water, maybe even at anchor. Should be able to tie a couple thousand of them all together in a big thick horse shoe shape a couple hundred acres in size within 90 minutes and have a half dozen seal types keep it all together or redo emergency lashings… Maybe leave them in that arrangement semi permanently and have donor yachts available for use by “residents”. .


(noboxes) #75

Sounds like you have it all worked out! When can we see photos of it in the water?


(bill mapezzi) #76

I don’t know. I need to to figure a single purpose use for one first. Maye a 220ft fish shaped raft 4 “tubes” thick I could navigate across the Pacific and sell 15,000 good used tires in the Philippines. That’s about 3 months of work, 2 month “sail” and not all that profitable. maybe $75,000 all in all if I didn’t get ripped off on a “wholesale” deal. I’m not going to float around the Pasig river selling a dozen or so tires for 10 bucks each for the next 5 years just to get 150,000… But the guys who would jump at the chance couldn’t even come up with 50 bucks. And the guys who could pay me 75-100 grand would just sit and watch till mosquitos ate me alive then get the tires for free. How about you send me one of these image and one of these image and ill strap 40 tires together like described and put it in some flex tests and then try a destruction test, running it over with my semi, trailer only 6mph.I could get it wrapped in 6 mil plastic and get close enough to a lake by my house to roll into the water…but Id leave it there…I’m not even sure I have 40 tires all the same size. maybe it doesn’t matter much as long as they have same wheel diameter. I got hundreds…


(noboxes) #77

I live 100’s of miles from the Gulf of Mexico, i am pretty sure i cannot drag enough tires as you describe i’d need, to the GOM. Even if i split the load, i don’t have a place on the water down there to overwrap the pontoons with EPDM and then connect the pontoons together.


(bill mapezzi) #78

Yeah, well I guess there are a lot of people “in the same boat”. I live in Nevada,but maybe there is a remote chance that large group(100+) of mackerel, bonito, squid fisherman would pay $80 bucks each to “time share” a 57 footer. Then it would be worth(to me) building a sample boat. No one will let it dock at a marina so if there is 100 or so of them 30 could fish on it any given weekend and they could assign a rotating permanent crew(at least one - 24/7). Needs a couple of bows at least on the front and 30 life jackets. I would definitely do away with the tire tube cross beams in sheltered waters like southern California.Most of the marinas let you camp at anchor for 72 hours, nor would they chase you out if there was a storm or big swells from far away. The second and future editions would be an easier sell but no markup as anyone can strap a bunch of tires together and securely tie a couple of scrap metal I beams across them.
So that is how you avoid being looked upon as unconventional. Get your “group” together first or join one. Licensed sportfishing operations might pay someone to swim out to this tire yacht and stuff a knife through it though…I’ll have to think about that more.Somehow seal each tire individually would be ideal, easy, but at what cost…


#79

I disagree. I lived aboard boats for more then ten years in 3 states (California, Florida, North Carolina) and it was much, much cheaper than living on land. And that was living aboard in a marina, paying slip fees.

Living on the hook, you would save more. That saved money will easily cover basic live aboard needs, with some left for extra expenses.

It will never be cheaper to build a boat rather then buying a used boat. Never, ever.

I just bought a 1983 28’ Chris Craft cabin cruiser and trailer, in good running and overall condition for $4800.00. Sold the trailer for $2000.00 since I will keep her in the water.

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thumbnail_IMG_0357

You will never, ever build such boat for only $2800.00

If you want to seastead on a budget, buy a used boat, drop the hook and little by little, build a seastead “around it” that can generate some sort of profit.

If successful, grow from there. If failure, you have a nice spot on the water to retire on, rent free.

Not to shabby for failure,…


(noboxes) #80

But then, i may not want such a boat.

And there are no such boats here like that. To find one, i’d need to live down there and wait, blowing all my money on rent. Wait, i have no money. But if i did, would not go to Florida again.


#81

You can’t always get what you want but sometimes you get what you need.

Yes they are. There are good deals on boats all over US. It’s a buyer’s market. Got to know where to look, be patient and persistent.