Floating Real Estate | Markets | Competition | Technology | Engineering | Expert Panel

(Wilfried Ellmer) #1

• Can floating real estate successfully compete with land fill projects already ?

• Which are the suitable technologies ?

• What is the future of floating real estate ?

• Floating Real Estate will have to compete successfully with the landfill market, the yacht market, the cruise ship market, the island resort market and similar existing markets.

• Landfill in Singapore comes at USD 700 / square meter

• Monaco features both big landfill projects and big floating infrastructure projects (Monaco Breakwater) in close proximity. Dubai seems to “go down the same road”. So is Singapore.

• Is the big real estate paradigm shift (predicted by P.K Metha) on the Table now ?

• Is the bottleneck of ocean colonization solved ?

• Will New-VENICE and New-Atlantis rise on floating foundations ?

Invited Expert Panel:

@Kerim_Tapkan | @aliduman | @NickGri | @ANHMD360 | @Matias |

Moderation: @ellmer (nautilusmaker® )


@ANHMD360 …from my personal point of view landfilling would certainly cost more time & money…Land-reclamation has been in the scene for quite several years now, probaly we opt for a new technology? | Floating Island Malaysia |

| Floating Island in Malaysia |

Invited Experts - your comments please…

Introduction - Dubai Floating Island Project in Progress - Designer
(Wilfried Ellmer) #2


Kerim, what i find most interresting in your introduction is, that in your case it seems to be actually a real estate developer who is doing floating structures…

1- Floating Seahorses : Floating villas with underwater accommodation. 2 bedrooms underwater with 90mm thick 5mx3m acrylic windows on both sides, coral gardens attached in front of each window which gives an awesome underwater view in your bedroom. Design stage is complete and mass production of 152 villas ongoing.

2- Floating yacht club : A yacht club similar to YAcht club de Monaco in Monte Carlo, free floating. Concept design is complete, Detail design underway. Underwater restaurants, bars etc.

3- Floating Venice Island : At a size of 300m x 140m, completely free floating, with a concept design of Venice. Detail design underway. Consists of 2 levels underwater for hotel rooms, conference halls, ballrooms etc. Artificial beaches, private beaches for villas on the island, a unique and innovative design.

4- Floating gardens : Some trials been successfully done. From simple floating single Palm trees to much larger floating landscapes.

The floating Seahorse project looks like something that can compete successfully on the yacht | floating home | market - but what follows seems to “go far beyond that”…

Comming Up:

A 300m x 140m Floating Venice Island completly free floating. 2 Levels underwater.
Floating Gardens and Landscapes …

• That looks very much like the next step on the evolutionary line to seasteads.

(Ali) #3


We constructed this floating concrete barge for a shipyard owner, they were planning to use for connection between a jetty and dry dock. 375USD/m2 in 2012.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #4

@aliduman | Ali, 375USD/m2 - so this is already HALF of what landfill in Singapore costs per square meter…

@Matias | Matias, at what price level per square meter would you see the Monaco projects ? - both landfill and the floating breakwater ?

(Ali) #5

@ellmer yes, but just the price of the floating concrete barge, they were planning to use the rooms for residual oil and tracks would go over platform to ships

(Wilfried Ellmer) #6

@aliduman | Ali, the principle of placing real estate space into the structure instead on top of it was also present in the Monaco Breakwater which features a parkhouse under the waterline.

Reference | Reference 2 | Seasteading is underevaluated as investment field |

This makes floating infrastructure even more competitive with landfill - as landfill is limited to buildings on top.

Postulate: Floating Real Estate does not mean real estate square meters "on top of a floating platform" it means real estate troughout the honeycomb structure volume.

That makes the cost per squaremeter figure different.

Postulate: The parkhouse in the Monaco Breakwater is successfully competing with the parkgarages of the surrounding highrise buildings on the local Monaco real estate market.

@Matias | any comment on that ?

(Ali) #7

@ellmer Thanks for information, i agree with you. Given (375$/m2) price was according to honeycomb structure volume. I mean, the price is not including mooring details, superstructure works etc., just the floating structure


(https://www.facebook.com/Teba-the-boat-377807179312207/) #8

My favorite point about floating real estate is that it can be moved around and is not subject to market fluctuations and speculations in a specific area. Thus avoiding the risks associated to it and having to deal with the people responsible for it :wink:

(Larry G) #9

I think the mobility point gets overemphasized sometimes. Tow operations are highly complex, risky, expensive propositions.

It is a good point, but don’t underestimate the cost and difficulty of exercising the option. Even Venice prices on land vary from town to town and region to region, because transportation and transaction costs vary. Moving or purchasing from far away entails significant opportunity and transactional costs.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #10

The Monaco Breakwater was built in Algeciras (Spain) - it did make economic sense to build it in a relative remote (interference free and economic ) building site then tow it once over 1,384 kilometers over open sea, and finally install it stationary in Monaco in a high price real estate environment. In fact Monaco has no space where such a massive construction activity could have been deployed locally. This seems to be a model to follow.

Equally the NKossa barge was built in France - then towed to its oil field (in Africa). So was Prelude built in Korea - delivered to Western Australia…

postulate: The option to make the cost difference of building site and installment site, work in favor of the project, is too good to be left aside - In most floating real estate projects...global mobility is an ASSET.

The idea to have one extremly advanced building site that cranks out pieces of floating real estate fast and economic ( matrix printing - robots) to be delivered over the globe to supply waterfront city demand everywhere is obviously on the table - billionaire fortunes will be made with that...this kind of global mobile construction is impossible on land - the floating properties of the ocean are a quality of their own.
... and this sets floating real estate clearly apart from landfill...


(Wilfried Ellmer) #11

The idea of floating cities is around for a long time … Jules Verne wrote about it…

He was inspired to postulate the rise of floating cities by a voyage on board of the Great Eastern.

Context: (to Google up)
Great Eastern | first modern steel ship | Isambard Brunel | why did marine empires NOT build floating cities with the "off the shelf marine technology available" | solving the technology bottleneck of seasteading |

(Bob LLewellyn) #12

From an actual realitor’s point of view, real estate has value only where people want to be. It’s best to buy the ugliest house in a highly desirable part of the city, because you can buy it cheap and there is always a buyer in every price range.

One of the first things we do when looking at a property is to evaluate the comps. We pull the comps for the area and find similar properties that recently sold to establish a fair value for our property. This is not doable for a not yet established seastead. I am afraid that realtors come after the fact, what we really are looking for are developers. Realtors like to work with developers to pre-sale their project, but they still have to be able to compare the new constructions to existing ones. We have none yet.

The draw that an ocean village would have on people, and therefore money, is the ability to make money. When we talk about a new community at sea we can look at Reno and Vegas as a guide. Towns that grew out of the desert. But they offered something not available in the cities by the oceans, namely sex, gambling and entertainment.

The ocean is a different kind of desert so as realtors go, I need to find the kind of people that would find living in the ocean a desirable thing and financially rewarding. I’m going to look for new farmers. I would take out adds in magazines like Mother Earth.

We need to be able to supply their living needs, therefore a store Restaurant/bar etc. But the first real estate that I would expect to sell would be an operational farm. It can be small with room to grow but it really must already exist. Developers can make the investment needed to build a farm barge.

I am sorry this isn’t as positive an outlook as I would have preferred but if we are to think as a real estate investor would, you have to be aware of what the industry is familiar with.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #13

Already existing markets for floating real estate…


Those floating properties are obviously successfuly competing with shoreside houses and apartments on the local Seattle real estate market.

Postulate: It is not about the business that you do on the floating real estate (Shops Restaurants) the primary business driver is "creating the real estate where there was non - on the watersurface- in first place"

We should leave the Restaurant business to the people who buy the real estate (and know Restaurant business like Mc Donalds) - and focus on cranking out the real estate in a way that is competitive for the local market.
It is about solving the floating real estate technology bottleneck and create the big floating real estate paradigm shift...

Solving the ocean colonization Bottleneck | http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t59290740/seasteading-ocean-colonization-technology-bottleneck/

The Real Estate Paradigm Shift

Real Estate Paradigm Shift | oceanic business alliance | oceanic real estate | floating real estate |

This picture of the vision of Kerim´s development group in Dubai tells me the following.

• They develop 3 types of real estate | shorside | landfill | floating real estate | just alike…
• The price level between the three types is not very different
• The floating part is not a “experimental part in some corner of the development”

  • it is mainstream and mayor axis of this mixed development

@Kerim_Tapkan - can you comment and share on the strategic layout of the project?

• Does your strategic board consider P.K. Mehta´s vision a present reality to pump severe money and investment into ?

• If so, can you share on the underlaying reasons and decision making process ...
• Would you be interrested in a development in the Caribbean ?

Reference: https://tinyurl.com/y7h9cxus

Reference: The kind of marine ambient our floating event platforms are targeting…

The kind of platform we propose for investors to make money in this segment...


(Bob LLewellyn) #14

Comps compare properties to other properties in the area. The problem that we face is that people move into an area mostly because of their jobs, then they start looking for a home. There is no work out at sea, except what you bring with you. I believe that if we are able to show people how to make money at sea, we won’t need realtors. And there is money to be made but it takes money to make money.

That’s where we are at the moment and that’s where I am beginning to focus my attention. I’m looking for the money. But Wil, I just wanted to say that though we have had our differences in the past, I am really impressed by the amount of work and thought that you have put into this subject. With that amount of diligence, I see no way possible that you will fail.

It would help me a little if I had a proposal that I can sell. (Like the barge already fitted and ready) So how much (without run-overs) would it cost for you to build that 100 meter by 40 meter water tight barge that you were referring to on another thread, with that polystyrene-cement that you posted the link to? Figure a height of 5 meters or so.

I will take that proposal to try to find a sponsor. If you’re agreeable that is. I’m interested mostly in the practical but if you want to make it look like a floating island, then the extra cost would need to be added to the proposal.

With the economy heating up under Pres. Trump, we may be able to shake a little bit more cash lose. We’ll see.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #15

There is business to do out at sea in the right area and in the right configuration…offshoring the IBIZA party scene for example…the project is on - investors are interested.

In fact we do not have to explain to anybody, who is invested in an Ibiza shorside club, or bar, right now, how a floating asset like this, moored 500m in front of the active party scene, will convert into ROI (return on investment)...It seems to be "just obvious" to them...

Ref: https://tinyurl.com/yc3dajmo

The building cost per real estate squarmeter is detailed: here

(Bob LLewellyn) #18

Of course there is a real difference between ocean colonization and a house on a float in a lake. I like the effort but for us we need something a whole lot more rugged. This is the kind of water we will be facing.

All you need is to give it a front and back year, maybe 50 meters each, make it all a little wider and make the barge 18 ft high and you have a good working model.

But then, what are you going to do with all that space in the barge? One idea would be to put a water tight hatch in the house that opens up to the water tight space below or just put the whole living space below deck.

In the ocean - practical trumps ascetics.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #19

Sure, the “obvoius solution” to the “postulated problem” is this…

Put the vulnerable floating homes into the protected lagoon of a ramform…

@ForexBob - Now you are being funny suggesting that the design boards of the experts missed out to adress the problem of waves when makeing the strategic decisions for ocean colonization…

• Ali, can you share the location ?
• Would you be interrested to create a joint venture with our group ?

(Wilfried Ellmer) #20

Why Yacht | rather a floating island or a floating apartment than a classic boat or yacht. Other than the examples above it is built from “classical yacht materials” and offers real estate at a

• Price level of USD 23.000 / real estate squaremeter. This is clearly a upper segment offer.

• Kerim´s | @Kerim_Tapkan | Seahorses are less mobile, still luxurious, but come in at a much more reasonable price level of USD 5000 per real estate squarmeter.

• TSI published a target of USD 500 per square meter.

So there is a wide price range …

In our group (oceanic business alliance) we target a range of USD 20 to USD 800 per squaremeter depending on building method and specific project parameters | check more here | Because we believe that “affordability” of floating living space for average people, is one of the key-pillars to make seasteading happen.

As a rule of the thumb the heavy cast method is the most expensive building method, while the light freeforming methods, are the more economic ones.

Obviously any of those price levels is a feasible one and can expect to have customers. So any of those projects can claim a workable segment and compete with what is here and working already in the sense of the evolutionary business approach.

evolutionary business approach.

(Ali) #21

Hi, it was my previous company. As of now they don’ t. Floating concrete barge has been built in Istanbul/Turkey for a shipyard @ANHMD360 Could you please tell me what is your business (company)?

(Wilfried Ellmer) #22

@aliduman | Oceanic Business Alliance is a network of companies and people dedicated to ocean colonization and business development. One of our key focus areas, is solving the technology bottleneck of ocean colonization.