Flag pirate vessel thing postulate | oceanic business alliance


I do remember the Gaza flottila raid…

The Gaza flotilla raid was a military operation by Israel against six civilian ships of the “Gaza Freedom Flotilla” on 31 May 2010 in international waters in the Mediterranean Sea. Nine activists were killed in the raid. The flotilla, organized by the Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (İHH), was carrying humanitarian aid and construction materials, with the intention of breaking the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip.
The government of Israel stated that the flotilla was organized as a provocation or media stunt.[text 1] On 31 May 2010, Israeli Shayetet 13 naval commandos boarded the ships from speedboats[1] and helicopters in order to force the ships to the Israeli port of Ashdod for inspection. On the Turkish ship MV Mavi Marmara, according to Israel’s own report, the Israeli Navy faced resistance from about 40 of the 590 passengers, including IHH activists – described in an Israeli report as a separate “hardcore group”[2][3] – who were said to be armed with iron bars and knives.[4] During the struggle, nine activists were killed including eight Turkish nationals and one Turkish American, and many were wounded. On 23 May 2014, a tenth member of the flotilla died in hospital after being in a coma for four years.[5] Ten of the commandos were also wounded, one of them seriously.[4][6]
The New York Times, in an editorial, said, “At least some of the activists on the lead ship, the Mavi Marmara, were seeking a confrontation – and got one.”[7][undue weight? – discuss] According to a UN report, all activist deaths were caused by gunshots, and “the circumstances of the killing of at least six of the passengers were in a manner consistent with an extra-legal, arbitrary and summary execution.” [8][9] The five other ships in the flotilla employed passive resistance, which was suppressed without major incident. According to the UN report, several of the passengers were injured and the leg of one was fractured.[8][10] The ships were towed to Israel. Some were deported immediately, while about 600 were detained after they refused to sign deportation orders; a few of them were slated for prosecution. After international criticism, all of the detained activists were also deported.[11][12]
The raid drew widespread condemnation internationally and resulted in a deterioration of Israel–Turkey relations. Israel consequently eased its blockade on the Gaza Strip. All activists were freed, yet only the Turkish and Greek ships were returned. Israel confiscated and continues to hold the other ships, as well as most of the property (including all media recordings, which is important evidence) of over 700 passengers.[13][needs update]
There were several probes into the incident. A UNHRC report in September 2010 into the incident deemed the blockade illegal and stated that Israel’s actions were “disproportionate” and “betrayed an unacceptable level of brutality”, with evidence for “willful killing”. The UNHRC report was adopted 30-1 with 15 abstentions. Israel rejected the report as “biased” and “one-sided”.[8][14] The United States expressed concern about the tone, content and conclusions of the report and the European Union stated that it should be transferred to the UN Secretary-General’s investigation.[undue weight? – discuss][15][16] The UNHRC later also set up a panel of five human rights experts to examine the conclusions of the Palmer report. The panel stated that Israel’s blockade of Gaza amounted to collective punishment and was unlawful.[undue weight? – discuss][17]
United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon announced a parallel probe in August 2010 by a four-member panel headed by Geoffrey Palmer. The Palmer report was published on 2 September 2011 after being delayed, reportedly to allow Israel and Turkey to continue reconciliation talks. The report found that the Israeli naval blockade of Gaza was legal, and that there were “serious questions about the conduct, true nature and objectives of the flotilla organizers, particularly IHH”.[18] The report also found that Israel’s army used excessive force while the flotilla was still in international waters, and concluded that the degree of force used against the Mavi Marmara was “excessive and unreasonable”,[19] and that the way Israel treated detained crew members violated international human rights law.[19]
Israel has offered Turkey $20 million in compensation for the raid.[20] On 22 March 2013, in a half-hour telephone exchange between Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the former apologized on behalf of his nation; Erdoğan accepted the apology and both agreed to enter into further discussions.[21][22] As of May 2014, although several points of agreement had been discussed between the two nations, no agreement has been finalized.[23][24

What a bunch of crap.

(Jonas Smith) #22

You said ships don’t shoot at each other. They do. Therefore you are wrong.

You might say that it doesn’t happen very often, but you didn’t say that. You said they don’t, and they do. So your statement is incorrect.

(Jonas Smith) #23

It most certainly was a bunch of crap, and incredibly illegal. I can kinda understand the point of the Israelis…they were trying to stop illegal arms from getting into their country and this group of ships was obviously looking for a fight. But the Israelis could have handled it far better than they did.


From Shots fired to stop Scud ship :

Although the ship did not have a flag, the Spanish official said the 21 crew members were North Korean. One U.S. senior official told CNN the ship appeared to be a "stateless vessel" and that there was not much official paperwork on board.

The Spanish official said a Cambodian flag was discovered on board, although he said the Spanish Defense Ministry considers the vessel a “pirate ship” operating illegally.

Hmm, just like the usa does.


[quote=“i_is_j_smith, post:23, topic:511”]
I can kinda understand the point of the Israelis…
[/quote]Really, you do!

[quote=“i_is_j_smith, post:23, topic:511”]
But the Israelis could have handled it far better than they did.
[/quote]NOOO, Realy? They should have killed only 5 activists and show “restraint”.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #26

nope - the exception from the rule does not invalidate the rule it confirms the rule…

consider the red light in traffic: the fact that you get me a foto of an ambulance crossing a red light and police standing down does not mean that the rule of “red ligh is a no cross” does not apply to the rest of the world since you found an exception - this is a basic thought and logic error - exception found and citated does not disvalidate a rule. the fact that only in a life/death situation you can cross a red light - validates the “no cross rule” even more far from disvalidating it.

In the same way the fact that you can show a example of people who shoot each other at land also do so at sea does not desvalidate the rule that everybody is basicly interested in keeping the freedom of the seas and peaceful trade as it is…

to find out what is the rule you must dig out the figure which percentage of all ship transactions on the ocean include shooting…and to make your point successfully the percentage must be high - but it is NOT - and it happens certainly not for “flag reasons” as the poster pretends to show.


I have no idea what that means,…

(Jonas Smith) #28

Some more “representative fact”:

coast guards intercept Pakistani vessel
Royal Navy frigate forced to intercept two Russian military landing craft
Karine A Affair
Israeli Navy:Intercepting Illegal Weapons Shipments

That’s just from a few minutes of Google searching. I’m sure I could find a lot more if I really looked…

(Wilfried Ellmer) #29

if there where no “rule in place” the exception would not be an exception… only a non scientific mind would accept the citation of an exception as a proof that the rule does not exist…

(Wilfried Ellmer) #30

looks like the science of statistic signifficance is just not your thing…

(Jonas Smith) #31

If I was the leader of a nation and I was having civilians killed I would do whatever I could to stop illegal arms from entering. I’m not making any comment on Israel’s occupation or any of that stuff. But I can understand them wanting to stop the flow of arms from Iran.

They could have easily just disabled the ships without boarding them, or caused them to have “mechanical problems” like the other ships that didn’t make the trip. Attempting a boarding action like that was reckless and not necessary and they were completely wrong and should have been held more accountable for the deaths of those “activists”.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #32

looks we have left the foundations of cientific debate and reason…


I suspect if the ship had been unflagged (pirate) or Iranian or N Korean, or etc, they’d have used torpedoes on them, without warning. Once you get the military involved, by refusing an order (like to divert for inspection) and the military feels threatened, then humans are in trouble. Same as when the usa dropped “warning depth charges” on a russian sub off Cuba in October 1962. Many military do not accept “no” as an answer, and this is what makes “defence” of a seastead troublesome.


Well, he proved your ass wrong. Again. Shooting happens, why do you keep saying it doesn’t?


But you are not the leader of jack shit and it seems that there was no flows of arms to Iran.

The truth of the matter is that Mossad special forces didn’t give a shit.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #36

if i am proved right or wrong is not your call it is the call of the auditorium (sorry again a basic rule of scientific debate)

(Jonas Smith) #37

You may be great at mixing concrete, but obviously you are not a statistician.

A single exception to a rule shows the rule is not valid.

For example, you might tell me that there are no murders in Colombia. I just need to show one instance of murder to prove your rule is not valid.

Does that mean I should be worried about getting murdered in Colombia? Of course not. But you cannot say the chance is zero.

So if you operate a ship on the high seas, and are not registered on a ship registry, there is a chance you will be fired upon and boarded. Is there a good chance? I don’t know. But there is a chance.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #38

this has obviously reached my time waste limit…


So if the auditorium says 2=3, then it is not my call to say they are wrong?!

(Jonas Smith) #40

This has changed a bit in modern times. I’ve read a few accounts of the “So San” incident and there was great reluctance on the Captain of the Spanish ship to fire upon and damage the freighter. The same goes for the Australian Navy interdicting illegal immigrants from the Pacific islands. Military people are very aware that they can get in big trouble for making a mistake, especially when not engaged in active hostilities with another nation. So they tend to make absolutely certain that their butts are covered…