Flag pirate vessel thing postulate | oceanic business alliance


(Wilfried Ellmer) #1

Statement: a floating structure without a flag is considered pirate…



this whole “flag / pirate vessel thing” is rather a myth based on a undigested fragment of code from the 17.century than a “seafaring reality” of the 21 first century…the fact that it “keeps comming up on the forums” is more a testimony to the “distance to any practice of the forum members” than a concern a real floating structure project would have to deal with…


register as a ship may need consideration…


interference level to expect in the caribbean


To understand this thread read up the difference between:

  • flagging ( visual claim of being territory of a specifitc nation )
  • ship register ( being on a ship register list )
  • ship classing ( be under the ruling code of a classification society )

Three different things - widley confused…


…flagging ship register and ship classification are NOT the same…many things are flagged that are not ships, many ships are not in class but outside class. Many things are registered that are neither flagged nor in class…






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The economic realities and practicability shape the concept of freedom of the oceans - not legal hairsplitting - not gunboat politics | oceanic business alliance
#2

You calling people names because you disagree with them is annoying.

For why unregistered ships are taken at gunpoint by authorities, they are considered illegal.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #3

the only reason i deal with this kind of nonsense is because leaving that kind of “unsustained postulate” unresponded misleads the auditorium … nothing personal - no name was called - just the name of reason…it has nothing to do with you as a person it is only a quest for the scientific approach and truth of info :blush: sorry and bare with me…


is it really necessary to debate the obvious fact that ships do not shoot at each other for “missing pieces of colored fabric” anymore in marine practice…in the 21st century… :blush:

beware to get treated as flagless pirate then…and a bottle of rumm…

that kind of flagless activity can get you hung…



#4

I did not say all ships will shoot at all ships for not being registered. I am replying to your idiotic statement (please kindly note i did not call you an idiot) :

In the usa, or on a boat owned in part by a usa citizen, the usa says you are violating the law if registration is not done somewhere. In this ($^&#%) country, the police take land, cars, and boats as they want to, if that was used while breaking the law. And as you cannot call your “boat” a “seastead”, the marine police and uscg will keep calling your boat a boat, and if you do not register it, they bloody well will take it, sell it, scrap it, part it out, or sink it if they don’t want to tow it to port.


#5

I hereby ask that admin on this discussion board step in and make a consideration of ellmer promoting an operation that is clearly illegal in the usa and usa waters, namely : operating unregistered boats.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #6

this definitly has reached the no longer waste time nonsense level for me…have a nice day :blush:

keep up the seasteading core value stop fighting


#7

Maybe it is time for some rebellious US citizen types to go construct such an unflagged vessel, park it out in EEZ, or deep sea waters along USCG patrol routes, then videotape and transmit what happens?

That would provide evidence for or against the point of views being debated.

If it turns out to be untrue, it paves the way for north pacific/atlantic seasteading initiatives.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #8

good approach if you have doubths ALLWAYS do a “pilot project” to find a feasible way…instead of “imagine monsters lurking in the dark”…of “not knowing for sure”…


(.) #9

I agree with the pragmatic approach. It coincides with my idea of little money lots of time
approach. When a seastead is of small monetary value, it can be confiscated or sunk.

I think, the authorities would not know what to do with it. Sooner or late a civilian
would develop resentful feelings against the structure. That civilian person would
complain to the authorities, and so the trouble starts. (the suits and ties show up).
Just like in that documentary, The Last Free Ride.

So at that point, I think the opposin approach would be is to sease the structure by
the authorities and charge the owner for the disposal. It might be important to
nit to declare ownership of the structure. So I can be removed from the structure,
but in absence of evidence I cannot be charged with anything else, because the
authorities woukd not be able to establish ownership of the structure.

These are also some considerations why a little money lots of time approach would
be preferable. At least at first or paralel with anything else.


Interference is mostly private driven not state driven
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(Wilfried Ellmer) #10

… so as there is no “problem with it” all is in “good standing” and existing interference agenciecs “out of jurisdiction”…this can be a “desireable status” that can easyly be a plan A in certain contexts and host countries. In certain context the “out of jurisdiction” status combined with “political convenience to let it prosper” and mobility as backup in case the climate changes can be the strongest card a seastead has to play (as good manager have also plan B C D… and be not afraid of anything…) - the “pirate postulate” just cuts the exploration of that kind of approach and this is why we need to deal with it…for the specific US situation i recommend the study of the Lozman Case in supreme court… a home is under special protection a vessel not.


Legal uncertainty can be a asset that a good project manager can work in favor
(.) #11

Yes, somehow there are indications that opening fire is not the approach of the
authorities. Though I donnow about South America. There are the Falkland islands.
The Falklands are artic tundra, and a war was fought about the ownership.
Strange things happen.

In Mexico it is illagal for a vessel to have fire arms on board. When authorities find
fire arms, they confiscate the vessel. Authorities do not eliminate crime and criminals.
So, the authorities favor criminals by disarming the would be law obiding persons.
I do not go to Mexico. I refuse to go to a gunfight with a knife. Pick on me in US waters.
Mexican authorities carry irearms too. Why do not the Mexican authorities try to
enforce mexican laws without fire arms?


(.) #12

And piracy, by definition, requires international waters.
When it happens within territorial waters, it is a crime ot that countries jurisdiction,
and not considered, neither reported as piracy.


(.) #13

Wikipedia UNCLOS rules, I think that is where I red this.


#14

There’s websites that report piracy, and a lot of it is in territorial waters of various countries south of Saudi Arabia (not necessarily Arabian waters).


#15

Right, if the country has laws saying the liveaboard boat must be registered, don’t register it and see if you get arrested and lose your boat.


#16

Lozman did not change any laws concerning homes, or uscg rules concerning boats. And the usa authorised itself to enforce it’s own laws in international waters, especially if there is a usa citizen associated with the boat. I think this is the primary reason TSI is backing the project in (where is it? and how is it going? and why isn’t it “sticky” headline news?).


(Wilfried Ellmer) #17

consider: the most important lessions are not legal - they are project setup, and interference handling related…


#18

That guy was a dick and he fully deserved what he got, in my book.

Facts

From March 2006 to April 2009, Fane Lozman docked his houseboat at the City of Riviera Beach (“the City”) Marina and used the houseboat as his primary residence. When Lozman first docked at the marina, he signed an initial dockage agreement with the City.

On June 14, 2007, the city council passed new rules for the marina. The new rules include requirements that all houseboat owners docked at the marina have a specified amount of insurance coverage, show proof of valid registration, and sign a new dockage agreement with the City. The City sent Lozman three notice letters, in July, November, and January, describing the new requirements. Lozman claims that he did not receive any of these letters, although he did admit to receiving a fourth letter in March 2008. This fourth letter stated that the City would evict him from the Marina unless he brought the houseboat into compliance with the new regulations and paid an outstanding balance with the Marina. In March 2008, the City inspected houseboats at the Marina for compliance, and found that Lozman had not corrected the deficiencies.

All he had to do was get his registration, insurance and sign another lease agreement. Registration for his 62’ houseboat would have been around $140/year and insurance around $100/mo. That’s pocket change considering the fact that Lozman was multi-millionaire. The true fact of this matter is that the “whole deal” was retaliation by the City of Riviera Beach against Lozman since he was opposed to a private development involving The Rivera Beach Marina…


(Jonas Smith) #19

ship stopped in the Indian Ocean by a Spanish frigate that had to fire warning shots to keep the unflagged vessel from fleeing

Gaza flotilla raid

BTW those pictures you posted (the sailboat and dock) are not good examples. Ships and platforms in local waters do not need to be registered…only vessels that leave territorial waters need to be flagged.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #20

@i_is_j_smith - seriously ? you want to put that as “representative fact” what happens on the world oceans ? :smile: you seriously want a debate on that ??!!!