Could a Seastead be the first country to implement a Universal Basic Income?


(Gerd Weiland) #61

the value of the service in question, sic; A “FAIR TRADE” is a moral equation madam, which is a mutually agreed upon exchange of service between both parties. Not a dictatorial formula based on a market monopoly and the tyranny of capitalistic profit.


(Bob LLewellyn) #62

I wanted to get back to this when I had a moment to write, but free education is so do-able that the fact that we are not offering this is a serious mark on our humanity. Every lecture could be saved to disk and that lecture series could easily be added to a standard curriculum. In short K-BA would be available through the internet with a computerized test of assorted questions graded and the results sent to the school board as an accomplished step towards the desired diploma.

Any person of any age could go to school and take any classes they want from the privacy of their own homes or attend group learning sessions held in the various school districts. Certainly local districts could organize focus groups but so could churches and civic organizations. Education would be available to everyone at almost no cost, but we are not doing that.

Given the fact that something so valuable could be offered at a small fraction of what we are paying for education now but no one is doing it, how can anyone expect something like a universal income?

Fight the battles that you can win. A universal education is certainly a battle that can be won, even with fund-me original funding.

By the way, internet based courses and worker (percentile) ownership was part of the Marinea project’s planning scheme. When we lost the Marinea Project, we lost a test bed for so many ideas that could have benefited the entire world.


(Bob LLewellyn) #63

Just ran across this conversation about universal basic income, thought that I would share it with everyone. They explain the theory well and make solid arguments but I still maintain that it isn’t needed, at least not yet.
https://www.rt.com/shows/renegade-inc/415993-bregman-universal-basic-income/


#64

value of service vs reward is based on market forces. You don’t go to the first offer you see, you go to the one that will give you the most value ie. capitalistic profit.


(Gerd Weiland) #65

dear ForexBob, the free education as a model for a future Seasteading society you have alluded too, has been practiced in all (dare i even mention the name )even remotely socialist society for generations. In most post war European countries, south American, Asian and most certainly as a shining example to the rest of the world, right next to that hallowed capitalist empire the US of A, the proud country of Cuba. Where not only free education but also free medical care and a secure pension system is provided to everyone by their socialist communist system, which has prevailed to this day despite the over 50 year trade embargo imposed by Yankee capitalist dictate. A humane form of social cooperation which puts any form of capitalist system to utter shame. The universal education is not a battle that need be won at all, rather coming to terms with obvious social mistakes like this brutal inhuman capitalist system most of the world still has to deal with today. This is why i have become a Seastead pioneer. Not to define my quality of live through the utterly dishonest corruption of democratic rule which prevails in my opinion everywhere in the US of A today and which has nothing to do with the spirit and moral guidance of Thomas Paine, but to establish a future offshore social cooperation of free (from capitalist corruption and its inhuman dictate) individualistic rebel beings who practice ethical fair trade with each other on the principle of mutual respect.


(Gerd Weiland) #66

Dear noone–some people actually consider using moral considerations when deciding which form of trade is most “valuable” to them. If capitalistic profit alone is your criteria when dealing with others then i guess we will not have very much to do with each other in our Seastead future. But that is perfectly OK because our trade relationship as independent Seastead pioneers will not be determined by any capitalist dictate or market monopoly as is the case today on shore.


(Gerd Weiland) #67

Dear Asimov4 perhaps you should consider a variation of the theme of self financing Seastead pioneers which is independent of government handouts. See scrap tire Ring-Weave Upcycle System providing the Seastead pioneer with a 250$ per square foot bonus payment; sic consult my previous statements on this subject.


(.) #68

In my opinion, it is not the system that is inhumane, but the people living in it.
And American people are not so inhumane. There are atrocities in other countries then the
US of A on a much larger scale. After all how many people risked their life escaping to
Cuba from Florida, USA? The opposite direction has more traffic. Same thing about from
Mexico to USA there is more traffic. (in whatever sense of the word) :sunny: The wall is there between Mexico and USA, but not for the people, but for capital.
Mexico does not allow US capital to freely enter. And here we are. Politics.

In my opinion the universal basic income is not going to be the function of the state.
It is a rather leftist point of view that all social problems can be solved by throwing money
on it by the government. After all, the government does not have any money, people do.

On that note, I am planning to pick up some used tires in my neighborhood to do some real
ring weaving. There is still work to do around my house, but I am getting there.
I do the work myself. Meanwhile I have a full time job.

Best regards;


(Bob LLewellyn) #69

All of that economics theory aside, I wish to point out that Cuba pulled nukes. They allowed the Soviets to put nuclear missals on Cuban soil aimed at the US. Kennedy made an agreement with the USSR that saved face and protected Cuba from reprisal. The embargo had nothing to do with economics. I remember that part of history pretty well. But please feel free to on with your capitalist bashing.


(Gerd Weiland) #70

dear spark, it was never my intension to judge the people living in America or any other country on earth as being inhumane, as i believe in the inherent “goodness” of human kind, based on the mutual respect for each other in context with the “golden rule”, sic; “do unto others as you wish is done to you”. However the natural disposition of our fellow human beings is subjected to a huge impact of manufactured fear generated by political and commercial social systems which threaten or compete with each other and/or a systematic commercial (capitalist) exploitation. My rather leftist socialist point of view is based on a realization that indeed the government,(by taxation), not the majority of the people have the money to effect a social development which would benefit the general public, who after all is paying the bill. The few and ever more rich spend their money lobbying the government to ensure this stays that way, sic; Capital not Humanity will rule the day. I shall not indulge in any socialist rhetoric beyond asking you to please inform yourself about the global capitalist financial complex in the www Internet and not just Fox News, CNN and other established media outlets.


(Gerd Weiland) #71

Dear Bob perhaps you should rely less on your historic memory, which i can assure you was based in those days (not your fault of course) on restricted bias information, and inform yourself of the available refreshing new insights into the REAL factual reasons behind those historic events. As indeed the majority of other historical events that have brought so many innocent people undue pain and suffering to needless war and the verge of nuclear extinction, sic; the blowing up and sinking of the “Maine” in Havana harbor to justify the invasion of Cuba-- The attack on Pearl Harbor by Japan which was known (by your government) in advance but only used to move the aircraft carriers–instead of warning the many victims let alone avoiding war–the so called Tonkin Incident used to initiate the Vietnam war which in the mean time has been proven to be a perfidious lie by the government you elected–the unlawful invasion of Irak on the grounds of non existent weapons of mass destruction–need i go on?


#72

some isn’t all. Ask someone with limited funds to choose ethics over food and he/she will laugh in your face - it’s not my criteria but simply life, hence why capitalism is still the dominant economic model on the planet. Further more I would suggest you not take the tone of speaking for others. if a majority of steaders wish to follow a different model, then great. However a quick straw poll using replies on this thread would indicate that a decent 50/50 split for and against.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #73

In our group the “consolidated opinion” is:

  • Politics - less is more…:+1: (Mies Van der Rohe principle)

Seasteading is about finding an escape from politics in all its forms… (Thiel)


(Bob LLewellyn) #74

I don’t like to talk about the stupid things I said when I was your age, but when I see your arrogance and un-thought out advice I do remember my younger years. The young don’t need a cause to fight for, they just need to fight.

Why are you loading us down with all this negativity? Is there one damn thing that you can do about it? What then could we do about it? Think about this, if the rest of the world all got together and tried to do something against the banking industry (which owns the US government) or the US itself, what would be left is nothing. Nothing at all. This one government can eliminate every animal, insect, and most bacteria from the face of the earth. Do you want to tell me how to fight that?

Then here is my advice, keep your mouth shut and your ass down. That’s not just for arrogant twits, it good advice for every one.


(.) #75

Well, yes the wrong doing of the “your government” the USA.
Rehashing the past could bring up wrong doings of government of
other countries too.

I always try to remember that Bob, as Bob stated it, does not use the web without intoxication.


(.) #76

Hello Mr. Weiland;

I like the term: " please inform yourself" . It is a polite way to say it.
Well, yes I am trying to inform myself, and consider other peoples opinion and feelings,
ideas, and etc…

Anti government ideas could be not only social ideas. Those could be anarchist ideas too.
There is some agreements between socialists and anarchists. I am rather on the anarchist
side. I am happy to agree with other people. I think, people do evil things under the
cover of the government. And that is not limited to just one government.
But these are just my ideas. “do unto others as you wish is done to you” is a good
"golden rule" . I agree again. Though I do not follow any religion.
My idea is to do as little harm as possible to any sentiment beings. There are some similarities
again.
However, I think other people can communicate about philosophies, religions , politics and etc…
better than I can. (not to mention psychology and psychiatry) I do not have a TV.


(Gerd Weiland) #77

Dear sir-- i am a 68 year old gentleman who has never had a problem talking about the stupid things i said and did when i was younger, because old chap, without wanting to seem arrogant, i use these memories to learn from them, which indeed it seems, could be a beneficial self reflection, you should perhaps practice yourself. Your assumption that young people need to fight out of principle without even a cause to do so, seems an unfortunate reflexion of some personal trauma in your younger years and please spare me the details. The historical events i mentioned, were not only extremely negative then, but because such deceitful events are still continuously practiced up too today by your government (and many others) such events are equally negative today. This fact is only “loading you down” because for the first time in history anyone including yourself, can inform themselves of the disgusting complicent mainstream media everywhere who have helped to systematically deceive the peoples all over the world. That objective information is the first step towards doing “a damn thing about it” is self evident to all who wish to free themselves from this insulting misappropriation of journalistic and democratic ethics. If you are actually interested in informing yourself about alternative non-violent social initiatives which do not require you to “fight for” but comprehensively address the situation by helping you stand up for your civil rights, i would be happy to introduce you to them old bean. Rather than “keeping my mouth shut and my ass down” if you don’t mind.


(Gerd Weiland) #78

dear sir, when a group of people who will in one form or another enter a cooperative relationship with each other, be this on land or water, those individuals will wish to define a rule of engagement based on mutually agreed upon principles. Now one may prefer to define such agreements within a present or future political ideology or not, but we will not escape the point in any Seasteading evolutionary process, where we will have to agree upon a social framework based on mutual respect. As an anarchist i personally do not want to be part of any centralized political dictate. However i do want to share my Seastead space with others who wish to live their life by the “golden Rule” as a social framework of co-existence and cooperation, which has nothing to do with religious dogma or poli-tricks but reflects the catagorical imperative defined by the philosopher Emanuel Kant and which makes great sense to me as a moral foundation for Seasteading.


(Gerd Weiland) #79

Dear noone- i have enjoyed the hospitality of many peoples in my travels who despite often desperate conditions insisted on sharing the little food they had with me–this was a purely ethical decision on their part and no laughing matter at all, and has nothing to do whatsoever with the dominant capitalist model of human oppression you constantly refer too as “simply a fact of life.” I do not speak for others, but for myself. I do not understand your 50/50 slit for or against whatever it is you mean. Please do not think i am interested at all in convincing any one of any thing, i am just expressing my opinion, you are free to do your thing.


(Bob LLewellyn) #80

Oh please feel free to express those opinions, we are mostly libertarians here, as I am also. We are well aware of the offenses against humanity that this and probably every other government has effected. We know how an army division of black men were intentionally subjected to radiation to see what the effects were on humans. They didn’t ask for volunteers. Yes, we know. We know how our solders were subjected to agent orange in Nam and the burning pits in Afghanistan, we know. We know how the banks held the price high on their housing dividends until they sold their holdings to the American people and how the US government still bailed them out. We know. So I will re-ask the question, what the “F” are we supposed to do about it?

Dumping all your negativity on the readers here isn’t fixing anything and it takes us away from the topic, which was basic universal income. The other thing is, don’t you think we have agents perusing these subject lines, Why make us a target when all we want is to find peace?
May you find your peace,
Bob