Could a Seastead be the first country to implement a Universal Basic Income?


#21

No, Spark.

The proposed idea was to provide free basic income to all residents of a seastead.

If that idea is proposed in a discussion thread, it is a relevant RESPONSE to opin on that particular proposal.

Whether or not a seastead is ever built is a different matter. Discussion does not prevent construction.

It is a logical fallacy to conflate the two and claim … “If ‘A’, therefore ‘B’.”


(Alex Smith) #22

if you really want to implement it , you’d better to shutdown the general election system


(Chad Elwartowski) #23

Let me know when this free money scheme comes about. I would love to quit work and come sit around doing nothing on your seastead.


(Kim Cowdroy) #24

“shutdown the general election system” ??

Here in Australia over half the population receive government benefits. It is like most people vote for a living. Implementing a Universal Basic Income system is only a step away electorally.
But compared with a truly efficient modern economic system, I could see perhaps half of the workforce being of no value or in many cases worse, ie negative value.

Yes most back office public servants, most bank employees (assuming a simplified cashless banking system), financial employees, those associated with transportation (assuming an automated, safe system), legal professionals (assuming a more direct community oriented system and reduced and more specific laws), and indeed right across the economic spectrum by introducing greater real competition. And the rest of the workforce may have positive value but most not actually value for money, especially if compared with international lowest wages.

So if at least 75% of the adult population are classed as freeloaders of one kind or another, a Universal Basic Income system would seem very feasible in the modern world.


(Kim Cowdroy) #25

Personally, I would not go the way of a Universal Basic Income system (except in the smallest of amounts). I would look to provide largely free services through the government as much as possible, even though this would remove the price mechanism. In this case expect to have to provide say double the services, but providing in bulk reduces the cost per service and small co-payments could greatly further reduce this if needed.

What is further required is greatly reducing costs of providing these services, which is possible if you consider simplifying systems, automating wherever possible, replicating the processes, matching incentives to objectives and providing a community appreciation of those who contribute their time and effort to such an endeavour.

It would not need that many people (miniscule as a percentage of the world population) to be involved in automating the provision of services. The result would hopefully be that taxes would not be all that much more than in a libertarian society, but benefits would be substantial and universal for all, regardless of circumstance, so there would be full incentive to work, as none of the basic benefits would be lost.

Perhaps I am dreaming, but when you consider open and free software and the like, the potential is certainly there to transform the world.


(Kim Cowdroy) #26

Elwar, if you were to receive the basics to survive, I am quite sure you would still be more than willing to work your butt off. Main difference would be you would be able to work on things that you actually wanted to work on, without having to worry about the basics for survival, making you all that much more efficient.

Sure taxes would be higher than otherwise, but in a new seastead society potentially nowhere near what they currently are in western countries, assuming systems are simplified, automated, incentives linked to objectives, and subject to true competition.

And further with people working on what is really needed and on what they actually are keen to work on, there are likely huge gains in productivity. Enough overall probably to more than compensate for the cost of basic benefits to all.


(.) #27

Well, it’s called the “cheap shot”. I guess.
So, I would not like to participate in cheap shots, because I am really good at them,
and I enjoy them too much. There is merit to the cheap shots too, just that is not something
I want to do. And those shut down communications. I am superior to you and that is it= end.

As I stated before, I do not think I can solve social problems of the global size.

I do not want to call names and determine what a cheap shut is, and I do do want to
raise a bunch of unmpalumpa. Nor would I like to get money for nothing from anyone.
It is mutual understanding what value is. No deal is a no deal. Just like sex. Ups that
was a cheap shot.


(.) #28

I like the politicians exchange:
Winston Churchill was told by a woman:
"Sir, if you were my husband; I would put poison in your tea."
Churchill responded:
“Madam, if I were your husband, I would drink that poison.”


(.) #29

If I was a native speaker of English, I would have no excuse. (I know, were)


(Kim Cowdroy) #30

Of course, any form of Income Support is initially hypothetical.

Any sea village is likely to need to have everyone working flat out just to survive, especially if it is remote.

IMHO, it is quite possible that even this would not be enough depending on how cashed up the participants are, and a generous sponsor may be required to ensure survival in the short to medium term, such as to cover the cost of regular re-supply.


(Alex Smith) #31

if you gave basic income without any consition and that income could let one guys live freely, i think most of the citizens might rely on it. and plus the general election system, that system will be sollited by them.

if most of the citizens dont work and rely on it, how can you get the fund? you could only rise the tax rate, and which might force those who still works consider to move to other countries especially enterprises.

dont get me wrong, i am not agaist basiclly income, in my opinion, anyone get a long term basic income should give up their voting rights to avoid the case i mentioned above.

and perhaps you still insists on gave everyone basic income and still let them hold the voting right, well, you might not like communism society i guess


(.) #32

As far as communism went, in my opinion, is fascism.
The so called communism in western societies it was referred to as communism.
The Marxism-Leninism referred to it as socialism because it was not yet the workers
paradise. It never got to be the workers paradise.
Anyways, there were arguments about different things, but the word socialism was used
differently in the Soviet Union than in Western Europe. It was kind of like “newtalk” in 1984.
Use the word in a different meaning to confuse everybody and prevent communication.
Same thing with the word “believe”. Religious people use the word believe in the sense of
devotional worship. Non religious people use the word believe in the sense of; I think may be so.

So on soviet terms they declared they did not reach communism. Their definition of communism
was different. The soviets declared that they were in the state of socialism, and that will lead
to communism. According the communist manifesto, communism has win all over the word with
or without weapons. I guess they were going to make everybody love them, yes they were.
Shortly after that their society fell apart and they gave up. So much for the determination.

There were some groups who worked a lot. There was a highly idealized group called the
stahanovists. Those people did pride themselves spending their life in work. The only problem
was that this pride did not originate from Marxism-Leninism, but it originated from anabaptist
religious points of views. And the soivets did not want to support the religious points of views,
so the stahanovists slowly faded away, and production dropped. And the Games People Play
took over productive work, and the society fell. That is one small story from the Soviet Union.

In the soviet communist system I had to carry id paper with me all the time. I could be stopped
by a policeman and my id papers could be examined. In the id paper there there was a section
about employment, and if I had no employment for a continuous 3 month , that would had been
a reason for an arrest. That was the law. Is not that resemble more to fascism? And they were
going to make everybody love them. It was just man made law, but they thought they were god,
even though they did not believe in god. The communists devotedly worshiped Marx and Lenin.
They even stuffed Lenin’s body and put it on display.

After the fall of the soviet system; facts were gathered about it by eye witnesses. There is a
web site about some of the history of communism in Hungary. The web site concludes, that the
communists spent significant amount of their life in prison, mostly sentenced by each others.

It was an artificial society with artificial laws. Physical facts are not only the assassination of
Trockij, but the mass graves of the Butovo Firing Range.

And that is the story of the liberal left ideas. The story of fascism is just as bad.

So that is my opinion about man made “laws” I try to not take my ideas so seriously,
one way or another.


(.) #33

Meanwhile, I am in the hurry with the painting.
I want to finish it before the paint runs out.


(Alex Smith) #34

i agree with you on the point of communism is fascism
since i am live in such system, yes, i live in china, we really use new talks and an id paper(a 18 digits number)


(Bob LLewellyn) #35

Regardless of what came about from Marx’s work, I think we can all agree one one thing, the man had no writing skills what-so-ever. I read the Manifesto and Das Capital, and in both works there was not a glimmer of writing flair. However, there is one problem with Communism today, Marx believed that capitalism would grow until it could not support itself anymore then crash, Then economic society would rebuild on a shared distribution arrangement from which Communism would grow. The Communist countries didn’t go through the extreme capitalist era so what ever grew out of it was not Marx’s communism.

In my opinion, not only was he not a very good writer but he wasn’t all that good with predictions either.


(Bruna Augusto) #36

YES!
one of the reasons to be part of Seasteading is to see the opportunity to implement the Basic Income. We has being working and paying the Basic Income for almost 10 years, without govern,comletely independent, and with the seasteads this could work even better, as the people living there is more open mind and search for inovaton, in tech, social, political. So yes, I’m working for it. Can’t wait to start this next step.
Follow some videos of our work and if somebody wants one of the books about Basic Income please give me your email, i send it for free.

Making 6th payment, in 2009

On World Social Forum, Marcus Brancaglione is the 3th presenting the project

In Basic Income Congress, Munich 2012, I’m presenting

In Budapest

in Paris

The Book

book


(.) #37

Hi;
Thank you for your post.
An eBook would be interesting.


#38

I think that when it comes to basic income and seasteading, we are talking about a time frame far, far away from the present and far, far away from the political and socioeconomic realities of what seasteading will really be.

If we want to fantasize, we can spend a lot of time @ basic income & seasteading. Have fun with that guys!

Down to Earth and close to the present moment, it is almost a certitude that the first seastead will be a small business and run as a small business. Therefore, the residents will be the owners (partners), employees and customers (visitors, etc.)

I can hardly see basic income as a “necessity” on such seastead or, who the heck the provider will be, for that matter…


(.) #39

The more I think about libertarianism and Ayn Rand, and Atlas Shrugged, I conclude
the basic problem is; some people just simply do not understand what the phrase
"my money" means.

I think I understand; the term “your money” the way that is something that is none of my business


(Bruna Augusto) #40

what is your email so i can send to you?