Cities need Freshwater to Grow


#41

You [adjectives deleted], the dewvaporator is a distillation process.


#42

Just look at the resources tied up in that floatie thing, vs the amount of plant growth you will get from it. There’s much better ways to grow plants on a seastead. I’m sure you’ll find a new favorite method in a month or so.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #43

@KatOnTri, in scientific debate we debate to make progress not to argue and win a fight - we are not making progress - progress can only be made by pilot projects on this point - debate without bases is pointless and timewaste.


@Matias entrance hypothesis that a city producing its own freshwater is feasible was not refuted here successfully - so it stands strong - we should use this thread rather to supply info than make it a egomaiac fight who is right - how does this sound to you ? @KatOnTri


#44

Then read the [adjectives] pdf and webpages on the pilot projects, documents, charts, reports, patents, by those who did it, built it, saw it, studied it. You say you want proof, it’s there, check out the urls i gave you. But i expect you want to be the first to stomp on me in each thread, and proclaim i am wrong, because you do not do the research to show i am correct. Hell, you did not even know the dewvaporator is a distillation unit.


#45

I think you are being very skilled in manipulating a thread for your own purposes. You refused to read on new technology, and proclaim i am wrong simply because i mention it.


#46

Then my hypothesis is the Cay Sal Bank is drinkable fresh water, not salt water, and you have no proof it is salt water, because 1) you have never been there, and 2) have no pilot program built, and 3) you are not an expert in the Cay Sal Bank.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #47

@KatOnTri, no i give a dime if you are right or wrong everybody in the auditorium should make his own opinion on that - i am merley interested in moving things forward and @Matias seems to have a clear and logical thought line on how to do that - my support is for the guy with the clear and feasible thought line because i am educated to value the cientific approach - it is not about “winning an argument” that is “toodler stuff” it is about making progress.


#48

You are then still [adjectives]. How can you say that platform with over 40 barrels under it, growing that little bit of food, is the best way to make drinking water? You didn’t read a bit of the dewvaporator cabinets, or you’d know in that same space you can make 5000 gallons per day of drinking water, reliably, without reliance on solar power shining that day. It’s not opinion, it’s proven fact with built working watermakers. You are so far from scientific, it’s laughable.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #49

@KatOnTri, i am not going to have a “childish doodler debate” with you…if you said somthing with a point that sliped my attention but is important to you - sustain it better reformulate. Like most people on the forum i do actually filter what i read. We are at page 49 of a thread where maybe only 4 pages make kind of sense - so you trapped me my attention paid to your posts is slipping…


(Matias Volco) #50

The topic of the thread is that Cities need freshwater to grow
not that we can instantaneously launch a self-sufficient stage one community.

for that initial community, exploring the future of fresh water harnessing from saltwater with more than just one method should be a priority.

Just as a few years/decades back solar energy was not economically feasibly compared to other solutions, even though the sun was and is the biggest free energy radiator, now saltwater doesn’t seem viable, except through desalinization, which is a “forced” method, even though all the fresh water collected elsewhere in the world comes from solar evaporation, condensation by unpredictable natural forces, collection through dirty/unmanageable drain basins, and ultimate purification. It is a matter of organizing that natural process. Of course if someone like me knew how to do this on a large scale I bet it would already be done and there would be thriving cities in the middle of the desert.


#51

Sure, Ellmer, you said:

and i kindly informed you there are new modern distillation units of cabinet size that are proven to perform very well, proven in real life. They have been built, studied, reports have been written about them, and many are still online.

It’s a shame you cannot read them, and have spent 50% of this thread telling me how wrong i am, and how the reports are irrelevant for making water, and that the dewvaporators do not work because i am not the one who invented them.

And then you proclaim how scientific you are, that i am a “childish doodler”, and you say trying to get the truth to you is an egomanical arguement of trying to change opinions.


#52

No, because there’s 1) no massive amounts of salt water to desalinate in the deserts, and 2) humans insist on doing projects like that in a way that is the most expensive, which 3) no one wants to pay for. Even Lybia, which is on the Mediteranian, is going to bring water in by tank ships.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #53

In some way the first ocean settlements will be research facilities where these kind of experiments are going on in a large scale to finally find out the best and most sustainable way of fresh water supply…


(Matias Volco) #54

Yes thank you Wil, that’s my point. I’ve noticed we can sometimes cling to the absolute (or black and white) mentality of thinking of systems as a fixed reality to last to for generations, because that’s what humans had been doing for millenia.
We cannot predict the innovations that will come in 5, 10 or 20 years time and therefore it’s useless to plan a “complete” “fixed” unique solution for a problem we are ourselves voluntarily creating.
Rather the solution will evolve and diversify much like it happened with electric production (coal the first historical solution is still used by in other places it’s been phased out).
The pods I link are a very basic form of desalinating seawater and using them in-location. It’s put together by a design studio perhaps in part for publicity reasons so many of its technical faults should be overlooked and tried to be solved, through simulation and experimentation.



Comments are expected to be made in a brain-storming kind off manner, not in a court-room way. With the prevition of not fillibustering like I am sorry I’m doing right now.


#55

Something else to consider: http://www.greenprophet.com/2010/08/air-conditioner-water-source/

AC units on buildings like the Burj Kalifa produce thousands of gallons of fresh water per day due to condensation,which require little, if any filtration to be fit for human use. Obviously we aren’t going to build the Burj Kalifa on the ocean any time soon, but smaller buildings still produce water. If we applied some sort of system like that to as many buildings as possible, we’ll get a nice amount of water. It may not be the only system we need, but still worth it, since the Bahamas can be pretty damn hot. At the very least, we’ll get water for agriculture and toilet use (Unless we use composting water free ones) ect…


(Bob LLewellyn) #56

Maybe the problem that we have here is too many options however there is one thing that has not been addresses. When evaporating water into vapors, water isn’t the only thing that vaporizes. Lighter elements like benzine will also vaporize and consolidate back into a liquid right along with water. This may not be too big of an issue with ocean water but an activated carbon filter costs little and will remove those pesticides and other unwanted contaminants. RO does a little better job of this but not perfect and is a royal PITA for maintenance I think we will need a two phase system.

So are we ready to build a prototype? Lets take a 30 gal drum and fill it with saltwater. Put it in the bright Caribbean sun and see how much water we can distill out of it. Then lets have that water tested to find bacteria count and purity. It cost $35 for a water test, I think I can afford that. The second stage to this test would be to put solar reflectors behind the barrel and see what percentage of increase we get.

Wil, you’re the construction guru. Want to build and test out a solar distiller? Having these types of systems designed and ready for use will make getting funding that much easier simply by showing that we have thought out every part of the project before we proposed the project to potential investors.
Bob


(Wilfried Ellmer) #57

@ForexBob, in fact a lot of options there are wind turbines in use producing water by condensation instead of electricity as we speak…

Have been involved in sistem installed on farms in colombia…enough water for 1000 heads of cattle…impressive …better than drilling a well …

We certainly may want to evluate the options in the project board…as you have built a house in Nicaragua you know the value of a reliable fresh water source in the caribbean…


Marinea will not only fuddle around with improvised destillation units - it will make a visible statement to worldwide investors - the future is here - and we are driving it


http://www.eolewater.com/gb/our-products/range.html



(Bob LLewellyn) #58

I dug a well a good 10 ft below the aquifer (low level of Lake Nicaragua) so I had no problems with the amount. I had a 55 gallon drum painted black for hot water. Sometimes the hot water was too hot, so we always had to run cold water first then add the hot until we got the temp that we wanted. My first shower was painful.

However, they have an interesting system for pumping water. We know we can not pump water beyond 25 ft using a suction pump and getting a submersible pump wasn’t the easiest thing to find.
They take bells big enough to fit in a 3 in water pipe and thread a rope through the bell where the clapper goes and tied a knot so it was inside the bell. They would put a bell every foot or 18 in apart and pull the rope and bells through the tubes. There are two pipes, they are connected at the top and bottom with a T on the bottom to allow water in and one almost at the top that lets the water out. A windmill or hand crack turns the wheel at the top where the rope is pulled through the pipes. The bells catch the water and pulls it through the pips and lets it out on the top into a pipe where the water is run into a catch basin and the house is fed from the basin using gravity. This no electric system will pump water up over a hundred feet.

For a reverse Osmosis system the ideal pressure for operating an R.O. system is 60 PSI. The pressure of water do to gravity is 0.0361 lbs/cubic inch. To get at least 60 pounds of pressure we would need to elevate the intake to (60lbs / .0361 Pounds per inch) = 1662 inches or 140 feet.

So all we would need to do is to build a tank 140 feet above the filter and the pressure will be about right to run the system. 40 to 60 PSI is also the recommended water pressure for houses. So a second windmill and holding tank could be built at the same height to give Marinea a good water pressure supply without electricity.


#59

We can probably use something like an Archimedes screw attached to a wind turbine to raise water up with no real maintenance needed.


#60

I think that like most humans you are making this too complicated, and too pricey. This also translates into too heavy and too large.

I use a pump-motor combo the size of a large drinking glass to lift over 1000 gal per day of water 70ft up the mountain from my creek to the 3000 gal outside storage tank. It takes right at 48 hours to fill the 3000 gallons. These sorts of pumps typically weigh under 10 pounds, use under 100watts of power, and cost under $25usd. When pumping laterally, they will develop 100psi easily. I know someone who has been using one on solar panels for 10 years: he lifts out of the well to his fish pond until it’s full, and then uses a 2nd pump to pressurize the house thru the RO system.