Awareness what is out there already | oceanic business alliance


(Wilfried Ellmer) #1

Continuing the discussion from Aquarius - from Millenium Project 2.0:


Breakaway Civilization | Seasteading | Ocean Colonization | Advanced Oceanic Cities | Atlantis | Enlightenment | Oceanic Business Alliance | next big thing in business
Lenserstead, eco-village seastead design
Seasteading Invest | the big five of ocean colonization | investment yield 10%+ | oceanic business alliance
Road map from a concept to the market
Maximum depth | tubular concrete structures | hydrostatic load | spheres | oceanic business alliance
Geopolymer Concrete, the perfect seasteading material
SeaSteading City Theory….Why The SeaStead Prototypes are Doomed to Fail
Understand floating real estate | invest in floating real estate | emerging trend
Has anyone ever actually built a seastead or micronation?
(Jonas Smith) #2

None of those is a seastead.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #3

http://discuss.seasteading.org/t/what-defines-a-seastead/25


(Wilfried Ellmer) #4

non of those a seastead? - that is your opinion - what defines a seastead ? - what is a “consolidated opinon” on that, does, or can a consolidated opinion in such a diverse group exist in first place ? - check a long thread about this topic here on a 19 page thread dedicated to the phrase “this is not a true seastead”…


Who is called to decide what is a true seastead ?



(Jonas Smith) #5

A seastead already has a definition. It is a homestead on the sea.

Your first picture is an anchor. The second is a dock on an artificial island. The third is a bridge support. None of those are seasteads. It’s not my opinion, it is a simple fact.


(Larry G) #6

I’m interested more in solving the engineering problems of a structure that could be lived on indefinitely in the open ocean, rather than in debating what is, or is not a seastead.

It’s useful to have an idea of what kinds of structures have already been successfully built that meet the requirements of existing indefinitely in the open ocean.

It would be nice to have some detailed architectural and engineering information- diagrams, specifications, standard for deep ocean structures and ships. The actual designs (not just artists’ renderings, although sometimes they spark good discussion) for:

-ocean-going barges
-oil rigs
-spar buoys of significant size
-cruise line passenger ships
-cargo vessels designed for shipping containers
-cargo vessels designed for shipping cars
-mobile dry docks
-aircraft carriers.

Many problems have already been adequately solved. Others need unique solutions. some just need adaptation of existing solutions.

This is the engineering section. Engineering has an element of speculation, but it goes beyond speculation into specification. I took a break from TSI for several years, and I don’t see much progress in the discussion forum. People are still speculating, rather than designing- with a few notable exceptions who have built actual models.

A library of existing engineering documentation and design specifications would be more helpful than talking about what is or is not a seastead.


#7

I pretty much agree with that statement, except that i built and titled and launched a 12x16 pontoon boat, and the tiltbed trailer that took it to the water. And at the moment, am using the center deck portion of another boat under construction to build a smaller trailer to carry materials for that boat’s construction. Building floating things isn’t a problem, the problem will be finding a home port where to put into the water and leave my truck/trailer parked and get snailmail to.


(Bob LLewellyn) #8

[quote=“thebastidge, post:6, topic:353”]
and I don’t see much progress in the discussion forum.[/quote]

Sorry to disagree but we have started a pilot project called Marinea. It may not be where you would like it to be but we are making progress. You just have to remember that what we are doing has never been done before. If we want to go a little slower to make sure our ducks swim, who could fault us for that?
Bob


#9

Or become tastey menu items! :slight_smile:


(Larry G) #10

Not faulting those who are building projects- on any scale. Just seeing some contentiousness about things like defining what is and isn’t a seastead, and too much speculative emphasis on sociological experimentation which is entirely moot unless someone actually builds something people can spend time on.

Not to mention some really juvenile speculation focussing WAY too much on how to make pot and gambling and prostitution legal, and nasty stuff about if pedophiles can have their own micro-nation. Seriously, WTF?

I took some time off from participating due to working and building a business. My lady is a freshwater boater, so I got re-inspired to see what progress seasteading has made because I am working more with marine systems on a practical level again, and came back to that. Disappointing to say the least.


(Bob LLewellyn) #11

+Well, we’re going through a transition phase where we are moving from talking to doing. Stay with us for awhile and help out if you can. There will be some residual discussion on peripheral subjects as we shift and the more philosophical subjects will probably still be here after we’re gone but, we’re going to build our project regardless of what else goes on. Welcome back.

Now please excuse me while I chide Kat, you stay away from my ducks you - cook, you. :cold_sweat:


#12

I agree with this. I think we’ll see some great new ideas with TSI’s new contest.

As far as real life, I think there are still many steps that must be conquered. A real Seastead means that all safety and licensing issues are resolved. A minimal concrete platform 50m by 50m would be 5000 Tons, Solving the engineering and design specs will run a cool couple $million. Building it is $50million plus. I don’t have this in my checking account. However, if you send me $2 million I promise that I will get you great specs ;-). Until then, higher and higher levels of design in hopes of attracting investors is the way to go.

The TSI Contest will help a lot with introducing new ideas, designs and specs. Results will be announced in August I think.


(Jonas Smith) #13

Such as? As far as I’m concerned the engineering problems have already been solved. We have semi-submersibles, TLPs, condeeps, compliant towers, massive cargo ships and LNG/FPSO vessels, floating breakwaters. We have suction anchors, pilings, screw anchors, vertical loaded anchors. We have water purification systems, energy generation, high-density food growing systems, 3D printing, aquaculture.

We have everything we need…except a reason to go to the open ocean in the first place.

I agree. TSI’s library is emtpy. I’d love to see costs associated with existing large floating and permanent structures, anchoring systems, tug company costs. Getting detailed plans and cost structures would be a lot better than relying on Wikipedia and the occasional blog posting.


(Larry G) #14

Such as…

Food production: Not a single one of those platforms you have mentioned have any significant capacity for localized production of food.

Industry: Other than mineral exploitation and transportation (including cruise ships), not one of those platforms has demonstrated a source of living income. They ALL rely nearly 100% on off-site supply, for fuel, food, tools, labor. NONE of them have people living on them for a lifetime. For a picture of what that’s like for people who have to actually LIVE in such an isolated situation for a lifetime, check out the multi-generational poverty level in remote Pacific Islands.

You may argue that these are social constructs, not engineering questions. The fact is they span both. As an artificial structure, nothing exists on the seastead without intention. Everything is built environment. There are no incidental resources lying around to be discovered and exploited. If you don’t take it with you, or plan to hang about where it already exists by mooring or navigating in a specific area, you won’t have it. If you don’t build or modify something radically different, designed to support those needs in the paragraph above, you don’t have a seastead. (Note: I am not one who says you can’t seastead on a re-purposed ship. I believe seasteading is in the intent to live on the sea as free of outside interference as possible, not in the platform. But the platform still has to support that intent in a practical manner.)

The very few options for seastead farming so far are theoretical or in pilot, not production. Most of the energy production is theoretical or in pilot at best. Sea-borne wind energy in production is mostly a political boondoggle, an exercise in appeasing ideologies. Not to say that it can’t do better, but it will do so at significant cost much higher than conventional land based. It’s kind of like the space shuttle program. It was accomplished because there was a mandate, not because it was a sustainable, efficient program.


(Jonas Smith) #15

Aeroponics. Aquaculture. Vertical farming. There are plenty of food production methods that require minimal space and could be done on any of those platforms. Sure you might want to import some beef every now-and-then for a treat, but you could be locally sustainable.

What do you need industry for? We are not talking about a money-making scheme here we are talking about people living their lives. I’m sure a little extra money could be made with tourism but the primary focus is on self-sustainable living not making money through industry.

Solar thermal, PV, wind…these are not theoretical they are commercial off-the-shelf technology.

I’m not saying that the lifestyle will be luxurious, but it can happen right now. Those remote Pacific islands prove it. There are no engineering issues standing in the way.

What is standing in the way is a reason to do it. Why would you live on a concrete platform floating in the Pacific when you could just move to a remote island? Why would you live on a cluster of sailboats roaming the ocean when you could live the same kind of life on a beach somewhere? There is no point in attempting to create sovereign seastead nations if we cannot surpass the legal challenges facing us.


(Larry G) #16

Most of these require intense inputs and labor. Inputs that will be more expensive than they are when you can run down to home depot or your local garden center. You don’t just run aquaponics on seawater and good intentions. Not to say that they can’t be done, but to plot the intersection of “sufficient” and “reliable” takes a little more than hand waving.

Have you ever attempted to grow your own food using aquaponics? Or even a greenhouse? Just growing enough food for a family on 20 acres was considered a full time job for the whole family and at least one or two oxen or mules back in the days before powered equipment. Will you be able to do that AND maintain a floating platform in the middle of the ocean?

Having lived in countries and places where people rely almost entirely on subsistence farming, I assure you that it is not romantic.But even farming is an ‘industry’. Industry is not a luxury, it’s a necessity of life. For the (mainly) subsistence farmer, spendable cash is the difference between starving from a minor setback or recovering smoothly. You can’t grow batteries. What happens when storms damage your tender boat you use for pulling in the nets?

You will not recruit people to such a lifestyle to stay, unless the reward is more than “scratching out a miserable existence, cold and hungry” regardless of the “freedom” from governmental interference. Not for long. The lifestyle doesn’t have to be lounging about on your artificial beach, but it does have to be rewarding and sustainable in the face of luxuries available a short evac flight away, with a million dollar book deal on how one escaped the cult…

Not quite. They are closer than a few years ago, but unless you’ve lived off-grid, I would challenge your perception of how easy it is. There needs to be significant design compromises to work with PV, solar and wind. Most standard maritime systems won’t work on these sources, as they are designed for diesel power generation to be the majority of the electrical production, and only supplemented with solar and battery banks. Just like a standard house doesn’t run well on solar arrays alone. It has to be designed for it, and there are trade-offs.

Living on a boat has challenges, and that’s without even the extra of living on a floating platform remote from support. You MUST have cash for replacement parts as they wear out. You cannot create your new batteries from seawater and coral. The planning horizon needs to be decades, not 36 months until your maritime deep cycle battery array starts to fade.


(Wilfried Ellmer) #17

check big five business fields of ocean colonization


#18

In dirt, i did. In 2-liter bottles on the roof, i did. In 5 gallon buckets on the roof, i did. But it was for just me on the roof. I love automation, don’t you? Everything but the harvest and planting, let a machine do it. I have not worked out pollination yet, but i know the basics.

I am resigned to buying fuel for a conventional generator (i have a 150 gal tank and two Generac units, and a baby genny, and a homemade unit), but i hope i can trade something i make for the fuel, that’s industry. I figure if i use batteries, i must save for a new battery each month after the first 12 months, and be prepared to buy one per month forever. And gennies wear out too, must be replaced. Conventional energy is very pricey. The best hope for baseline 24-7 power is ocean currents and otec, and considering what each delivers and needs, they complement each other well. Otherwise it’s batteries and $5 to $10 of fuel per sunless (i have some pv panels) day.


(Jonas Smith) #19

Yes aeroponics is challenging, growing your own food is difficult, subsistence farming is not very sexy, and using purely renewable energy systems requires a fundamental shift in the way you use your infrastructure. But all these are solvable problems…you can do all this right now without any major technological or engineering advances. It just requires money, labor, planning, and passion.

But all the money, labor, planning, and passion in the world will NOT allow you to overcome the political and legal challenges in creating a fully sovereign and autonomous seastead nation. That is the only hurdle we should be focused on…not hull shape or material or draft or propulsion system or water distillation or sewage treatment. All those things are solved issues, what is not solved is a reason to go out on the water if we cannot create a sovereign seastead nation.


(Jonas Smith) #20

TRANSPORT / ENERGY / AQUACULTURE / MINING / REAL ESTATE

You can already do those things without colonizing the oceans. In fact, people are already doing all those things right now without seasteads. None of those things are why I am interested in seasteading. Those are businesses and I am not interested in starting a business.