Applying Seastead Concept to "Refugees"

(W P Neidinger ) #1

There was an interesting discussion thread here. It is too bad that it automatically closed before the current world refugee situation came into full bloom.

So as I recall, the last discussion of cost for moving forward was a half million dollars per person - that we had to find for ourselves and our own families. As the previous discussion thread indicated many of those interested are themselves homeless, and yet we as a group - before our own intelligent, awake, willing and eager needs are fulfilled - are supposed to build a first, and perhaps only, Shangri La for the millions of RAPUGEES??? And it had better be a Shangri La, or they will burn the place down. And we had better provide workers to do all the things they aren’t willing to do for themselves - or the same result. They need entertainment for all the idle time they aren’t doing any useful work, which is all the time. Also, if we don’t provide a steady stream of fair Caucasian teenage girls, they will invade whatever landmass they are near and create worldwide laws against allowing the existence of any other Seastead any place, in our lifetimes, period.

That may sound negative, but it is consistent with the mass of reports from Europe lately and in fact I left out a whole lot of negatives, ie., mass food waste, gratuitous trash, religious and general violence, and the list goes on…

All of that makes no sense unless one deals what really is - a boat lift, cleaning out all the prisons of the Middle East and the Northern half of Africa, coached to a monumental sense of mass self entitlement, covered by the appearance of a few families from Syria, and boat loads of varying degrees of obviously false paperwork.

Rather than dwell on any of these negatives, I would like to draw a constructive comparison. In the business section, I made it relatively simple straightforward business proposition that could hugely aid in financing an overall Seastead project - and go forward now.

So do people who don’t have half a million dollars per family member now, ready to allocate, not count for going forward with Seastead? The proposition I made would take very little money to go forward now, and could generate after basic prevailing wages onshore in the USA, 2 million dollars per basic simple production worker in ten years, or six years if they’re already on Seastead. That is basic workers who are truely motivated and can stay motivated by applying craftsmanship to positive projects - we’re not talking about an intellectual or preliminary investing core - although an intellectual who is has been hamstrung in his or her efforts to amass saved financial resources could look at six years of basically productive craftsmanship has a small price to pay for being able to pursue the rest of a lifetime of more intellectual pursuits. See the business post “Investing Some Resources Now…”

Reward genuine motivation or you won’t have it, period; and there is a world of difference between the start date of now and the start date of someday.

(Matias Volco) #2

The problem is not refugees is mass migration, that is, overpopulaton combined with globlalization, a phenomenon we are all part of and a process we’re all undergoing.

Exceptions that prove the rule are always enlightening to analyze.
When one looks at Japan (or more markedly, if a Japanese looked at our situation) the contrast is unbelievable, and mutually unthinkable. It is inevitable but it is not pretty when a 21 century situation overlaps (for lack of a harsher verb) 18th century cities, institutions, and traditions. The solution is neither to react to it, or to pretend that is all ok, or a give and take, out of misplaced guilt. The solution is to find 21c solutions to 21 c problems.

It’s been repeated by the person who proposes the cost of seaworthy shelters would be far less than in land, that Seasteading comes in various different coexisting colors; I suspect that’s very much in agreement with the Seasteading Institute “let a thousand nations bloom” motto.

Using the most common and most used material in the world with a particular technique that allows it to be lighter than water (see concrete canoe competition), and further, using human workers to build it, would tackle not only the consequences of post-industrialization, but also its root.

I’ve seen banners saying “we are all refugees”. I agree, but not in the same sense the people holding thse banners: humans need not apply to jobs that are increasingly and exponentially being mastered by inexpensive computers. Technological advances, and Globalization, affects us all. So we are all refugees from the immemorial and probably ficticious “Arcadia” our grandparents might have tried to persuade us to believe in.

There is a lot of talk of large-scale 3D printing. Theoretically this would liberate humans from a lot of physical-bound labors to pursue creative cybernetic (ephemeral) goals and dreams. But what about the generation(s) that are in between both worlds? They represent the jobless masses that feed Anti-Industrial Movements and their Reaction. Above all and at its core, Seasteading, is a humanitarian pursue. That the (** subjectively percepted**) luxury of today is the necessity of tomorrow is only one of the small paradoxes needed to overcome civilization’s much needed upgrade.

I think floating cities can offer the physical platform for a Transhumanist civilization or age in a manner that is inclusive to those “stuck in the middle”.
Construction by humans, with little machinery, of sea-shelters, can be inexpensive, provide labor, and can be upgraded infinetly.

Much like new Nomadism, a tent can have the bear minimum, or be Genghis Khan’s Court Yurt. A combination of them would look like The Golden Horde’s moving cities, with luxuriously decorated yurts, basic yurts, tides instead of oxen, and trade instead of war.

The oceans looks to me like the vast expanses of steppe must have looked yesteryear

example of inexpensive land-based shelter cluster
tasteful interior option

Just imagine the possibilities unleashed if we began a seaworthy analog of an earthbag village that can move faster than a caravan!

(illustration by Matias Volco of what floating city would look like using Wilfried Ellmer 's Concrete Submarine technology)

Going back to Japan as an example of an alternative approach to post industrialization:
Ephemerization, robotics, lower fertility rates (barely replacement level), abolition of physical aggression (that, as in a virtuous cycle, allows robotic vending machines to be ubiquitous), a tendence towards quality and detail rather than quantity and roughness, and a morality that strongly, almost stubbornly, associates physical cleanliness with spiritual virtue, are all excellent qualities for life in self-contained habitats.

I propose a floating Japan for the Gaijin if you will! :slight_smile:
The idea did not originate out of any political or cultural bias, I was simply trying to figure out how the self-contained interiors of floating, ocean spheres, and of vegetation in general in all floating set-ups , and the concepts of the Japanese Garden and the Bonsai, even of the Kokedama, all became extremely useful, almost unavoidable.

(Matias Volco) #3

Refugees already spend a lot of money moving from one undesirable location to another. and by no means are necessarily unskilled. The fact that hey video shoot them walking or amassed at border check points is not because they can’t afford a plane ticket and be crowded in airport terminal like the rest of us, but because they ,as you point out the news mentioned, can’t use the “papers” that by accident of birth cannot get officially stamped.


I don’t see any of those concerns as having a foundation in reality.

Firstly, if someone comes to a seastead, it automatically means they’ve paid to do so or been specifically recruited. There is absolutely no onus on any seastead owner to take in refugees in the way nationstates do, so it’s unlikely they would try unless, as mentioned above, they’re applying for a job or renting a home.

As for using a seastead as a staging point for an invasion… why? It’s highly unlikely that the transport links will be such that it’s easier to enter a country like the US via a seastead then just going directly into the US.

As for your business proposal, I don’t see the relevance.

(Matias Volco) #5

The relevance is long term @Confirmed_Pirate as the only alternative to super-urbanization (encompassing unsustainable suburbia, unlivable high density city cores and statistically more importantly: sprawling land-based informal settlements worldwide)


Same still applies though. The problems currently being caused by large scale migration are largely caused by nationstates. Unless the seastead decides to become just another state, immigration is unlikely to look the same.

(Matias Volco) #7

To understand my point read more about Austronesian exceptionalism. I have linked andaman dot org dozens of times in the old forums, there must be some archived version of it - but any history of the Austronesian peoples, and how they turned their eviction, flight from Formosa (Taiwan) into the conquest of two oceans from Madagascar to the Easter Island to Hawaii can shine some light over the concept of an opt out.

(W P Neidinger ) #8

When I opened - or reopened - this topic thread, I was focusing on very human issues, very human needs. The other details were only there to serve a supporting function. There are many people here in America, some contributing to these forums recently, who have very real, crying needs, they’re awake and they are highly motivated. There are other people from elsewhere in the world, where the more you look at their actions (and you don’t even want to listen to the hate and destructive Ness in their words - translate it if need be), the more you wonder what they’re up to, and if there’s anything constructive that they would actually contribute to - and yet there seems to be plenty of money to put them at the front of the line. I wouldn’t even begrudge that except that after they make themselves known - there will be no more line after that. If we actually applied ourselves too motivated human needs close at hand, there would be no limit to what we could do, and we wouldn’t have to wait very long. There is a saying that charity begins at home. That is true in many ways. if you want to talk about everything but that and even argue with that - then start your own discussion thread.

This one is about identifying and addressing non-confrontational, non-combative, non-political human needs and intelligently and sustainably launching and applying productive projects to solve them - and now would be a good time.

(Matias Volco) #9

IS this what you mean?
There are several threads about the potentially very low cost of light concrete construction, not far from the USA

(W P Neidinger ) #10

So do you actually have any proposal to do anything about that (the construction technology you referenced) now or soon? Are you offering any skin to put in the game? Are you offering anyway for someone else who does doesn’t have the money to buy a place in Seastead to put some skin in the game in a way that will help the project move forward?

I referenced an offer of mine to put in what would become very substantial resources to facilitate a whatever overall form of project. Without something like that, this is all just talk. Talk isn’t necessarily bad - if the conversation is structured properly - it can help. But when talk isn’t about moving forward, it actually gets in the way, and soon could kill any project going forward.

Now nobody can say they didn’t have a productive proposal to respond to, or contribute to. If no forward motion happens henceforth, well maybe we’ll just have to face that nobody want really effectively wanted to - and perhaps any people were really intended to productively contribute will allocate their time elsewhere.The only way a Seastead can be built is by humans, and nobody else has discussed, let alone offered, any productive means to sort, apply and be those human resources.

Maybe most of these discussions didn’t get off on the best foot - but when such a subject is brought up point blank - and every response is steering in another direction, leading away from actually doing anything, then we are not here to make a Seastead or any part of it happen.

Again where is your proposal? Where is your skin in the game? Or any help for anybody else to get skin in the game? Just what is your mission here?

(Matias Volco) #11

Can you provide a link to that reference?

(W P Neidinger ) #12

As in the original post, see the business post “Investing Some Resources Now…”

I take issue with tangentally issuing this thread into something totally different than it started out as. I don’t care if someone knows every fancy buzz term invented lately to describe global macroeconomic and various microeconomic theories across the globe. My plate is just not empty enough to fully appreciate that. Again where is your proposal? Where is your skin in the game? Or any help for anybody else to get skin in the game? Just what is your mission here?


Currently my plan for a ocean settlement is to use wave power to make hydrogen from water via electrolysis and combine it with co2 from a process that uses but doesn’t consume baking soda in a Fisher tropsch synthesis process to make and export hydrocarbons–Tropsch_process

The settlement itself will most likely be a floating concrete water filled dish to make calm water for a marina with floating buildings inside which probably will be most acceptable for people to live on.

On my settlement people will be able to live for free in order to build consumer mass but if they want more than a basic income than there will be very low hour but living wage guaranteed jobs that modern automation offers through work sharing. Once a certain amount of people are living there than there will be a demand for restaurants, groceries, medical care, entertainment, water taxis maybe and all kinds of demands I can not foresee but which should create jobs and businesses opportunities for many. All paid for by the exports of course.

Wills I’m guessing you’re maybe a social entrepreneur like me and just as impatient to get something started and fast. For me it’s a matter of time to save money to build a pilot project.

I believe that colonizing the ocean will be much more difficult than simply building a fast food restaurant and coffee shop on the ocean than the rest will follow, commuting simply won’t be easy.

When we really make the move to colonize the ocean it’s extremely important that it’s a force of good to gain massive global public support and not some floating chemical plant that dumps toxic waste or things like that.

(W P Neidinger ) #14

Thank You AmericanSlave ! ! !

Now that is a post I can relate to! On my read, as soon as I recognize the words - I’m asking - what exports to derive income from? Enough money can solve problems a lot of ways. And then second waiting for what saved income? Most of the people in America who would want to participate in such a project either have no positive cash flow at this point or nothing beyond their immediate expenses - so how will waiting for saving help that?

If you first attack the savings problem, by generating some form of project income, then you can solve both problems at the same time. Who has a proposal for that? Well, I saw one in the business section, and I had posted it myself – under the heading “Investing Some Resources Now …”

This is a business that I was working on starting developing just myself, and whoever I would recruit and bring in has employees. This is a patented new tech application and I would offer early employees single digit and low double-digit employee numbers, and future stock options for plowing back some potenttial income if they want, excetera, excetera. The further money I need to get going should be attainable by me myself, however, I am not cash flow positive at this point, nor have I solved that problem yet. If someone is willing to contribute/invest a relatively very small amount - in relation to the scale of likely results, this could work very well for many ideal and intentional living arrangements. Some of this is patented and some of it is NDA basis. And as much as I have already developed this project, it would start to have tangible results immediately (well at the speed of snail mail).

(system) #15

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