A new Hope, Marinea resurrected?

(Bob LLewellyn) #81

In the world of research all assumptions are invalid. Has anyone noticed that most disagreements start with one person making a statement based on assumption, and bickering begins defending the statements or tearing up assumptions, which in turn becomes hostile and no work is accomplished. Young people are the worst culprits for making statements based on assumptions because they have not had the chance to have real experiences.

The fact is, I don’t know what will happen when we get on site, where-ever that happens to be, and neither does anyone else. My wife and I lived on a boat to see what it was like. Now I don’t need to make assumptions about living on a boat, we have the experience. I worked the Caribbean, I don’t need to speculate on that, and I lived in other countries and know how to grease palms (not the tree) to make things work. However, just because something worked in one situation, I will not assume that it will always work like that.

Case in point, that no loss trading system that I was so proud of, will no longer work in the US because they changed the trading rules (only for the US) so my no loss system will not work there any more. If we can avoid assumptions, dogma, and the insecurity that make us fight to be right, we may actually be able to break water on a project or two.

Here is the secret, every government wants money, if we can give them what they want, they will work to get us what we want. Instead of looking for the costs, which is how governments extort profits from the people, find the right person that can make those administration costs go away.

I suggest that we make the government (which ever that turns out to be), 2% ownership of the business and earn 2% of the profits. It’s all about profits in this world, don’t try to push someone out of the way, pay him to move. Make him want to get out of the way by showing him the advantage to him by moving. Governments don’t really exist, people do. And they just don’t want to be left out.


I couldn’t agree more with your entire post, especially “What they consider convenient.” and is good for them.

In the Ragged’s, because I am friends with all of them, I doubt I need a visa or anything. The general idea is that everyone helps everyone. One little example, I always leave the keys in the ignition and the boat open, that way if there is a problem one of the fisherman will fix it. There is no crime in the Ragged’s.

If you piss the locals off, good luck : ) You will be gone faster than you think possible and it doesn’t matter if you have a visa.

(Wilfried Ellmer) #83

Yes if you come in as the “nasty gringo” all licences and laws in your favor will be worth nothing the locals will kick you out. There is always a group that runs a region and it is certainly not always the central government… If the local customs is to let the key on the boat so EVERYBODY can use it - you better apply and show respect - although that is not written in any book and no lawyer knows about it. And why not take the good things you find and take them a bit further - A motorboat for medic evac given to the community in exchange for their tolerance of your project is a good starting point (been there, done that) - it is not about “greasing” and let money in the wrong pockets - it is about socializing adequatly and make your presence CONVENIENT if your are respected and convenient people will give a shit about a visa and papers and that includes the local policeman, mayor, (the Government so to say)

(noboxes) #84

Talador, i would not be there as a business, i would be there as a visitor, with a passport and visa, enjoying a long vacation. If some nice people want to tie up to my long narrow boat that can function as a dock, stretch out on the chairs and enjoy, chat about the area and boating, and make a small donation, buy some ice or fuel at cost, all fine with me. Only after knowing if a personal seastead like mine can fiscally survive as a legally recognised business would i want to place a similar floating structure there as a licensed business that advertises and charges money.

You ask why anyone would want to stay on my boat… well, that’s the data no one has yet, that’s part of my point, “why” or “what” can be determined any number of ways, but i think all those methods start with being out there with something people want, tend to not have enough of, cut their visit short because they ran out of, or something.

Really, a personal seastead would be mine, and i’d personally pay for it’s operation. The scheme i presented here would be for the sole purpose of evaluating the scene and gathering data on which to start a commercial endeavor providing services and generating income.


If you disagree, don’t invest in seasteading.

(noboxes) #86

Well said. If anyone think there’s no upfront costs to starting a business, plus the aspect of it floating, they should not invest in any business.


As shown the units are 60’ LOA, 35’ BEAM, not 120’ LOA. But they are scalable, can be any size.

Will find a deeper anchorage and they will “fit”. My units are shallow draft and bilge keels. They can “sit” on the bottom @ low tide, if necessary.

It all depends of a variety of factors. Could be built in Cuba for dirt cheap.



The key word is TAX REVENUE. That’s what governments understand.

In fact, I wouldn’t mind agreeing for 5% as an “incentive” to do business. Or whatever works. No need to nickle and dime it,… Minus cash and all the write offs it will end up to be around half of what was sign up for anyway.


A deeper anchorage makes the problem worse, it will increase the radius 7 feet for every extra foot of depth. If you mean a larger anchorage you will be extremely unpopular.

Sitting on the bottom at low tide does open up some nice areas, it isolates your units though, because no one can tie up to you or come and go.

Cuba is extremely expensive to manufacture in, probably the most expensive area in the region.

Give me a general quote for it being made in a standard ship yard in the States? And not just the structure, a finished unit ready to live aboard.


I don’t know what problem will get worst,…or which popularity contest I will loose or which anchorage is to tight there. I don’t envision any problems anchoring in Cay Sal.

An average wage there is less than $50/mo…

I think it would be pretty stupid to build in the US…

As I said, price is function of size, functionality and where is built. I didn’t get to the pricing point yet.

(Bob LLewellyn) #91

Everything cost more in Cuba because they can’t get raw materials. If we can bring our own raw material from the states or elsewhere close by and bring the Cubans up to the Sal, we could have the best of both worlds, wouldn’t we?

I think we need to start with a firm quote on an island in the Sal.


There is no cement and steel in Cuba? Hmmm.

Those island are Bahamian territory, NOT privately owned,… I highly doubt that they will sell it to you,…

A good start would be to ask the Bahamians if they’ll let us operate there.

(Bob LLewellyn) #93

That is good too but I think we should at least ask if they want to help us with our research, you never know until you try.


What do you mean by that? A bit unclear,…

(Bob LLewellyn) #95

Oh, no matter what we do, it will be research because no one ever done this before. There are all kinds of needs that will be addressed by the project, over crowding, food shortage, cleaner environment and saving countries destined to be under water from disappearing all together. We don’t have any real knowledge that comes from experience so just about everything will be research.

That is a good thing because people like to be in on developing something new so it can be a real selling factor. Someone has said that they thought they were talking to someone who new more than they did, I start by realizing I know nothing then set out to find out all about this project. I can’t claim to know anything except what questions to ask. I’m good at that. I’m good at research, in fact that is all I really do, when it comes to actually running the project, that I leave for the young.

(Bob LLewellyn) #96

Does anyone have a contact person in the Bahamas to broach this subject with? If not I will start at the
Department of Marine Resources
East Bay Street
P.O. Box N-3028
Nassau, New Providence
The Bahamas

Tel. (242) 393-1777
Fax. (242) 393-0238
E-mail: fisheries@bahamas.gov.bs
Opening hours: 9:00 am to 5:00 pm, Monday to Friday, except public holidays

Here is my un-edited text that I thought to send. Anyone see any problems with the intent of this intro letter? Other than spelling etc.

Dear Sir or ma’am,

I am writing on behalf of a group with a very important mission for the future of humanity. As you no doubt are aware, ocean levels are rising and we are losing low level islands and coastal areas. This is happening at a time when the population is increasing very quickly. Much of the worlds current unrest is from having too many people for too few resources.

The one hope is to begin to use all of our resources in a prudent manner. What we have in mind is to learn how to live on the ocean. How to grow crops in floating barges hydroponically. We need to learn how to be self sufficient in the seas and protect ourselves from wind and wave.

We would like to begin with a shallow part of the ocean but far from other populations in order to make the sea community a self governing, self funding and self directing community. The reason for this is that the needs of a sea community will be different than ones on land. People will live in boats and have stores and other businesses in boats, and develop trade from farms in boats.

We would like to begin this community from one of the islands of the Sal Bank. We don’t actually need the island as they are too small to actually live on but we can use it as a wave break and a stationary base for a transmitting tower. We would like to build a marina adjacent to the island and protect it with walls to begin with but later find ways to limit waves with floating devices. This idea may grow into a Venice in the Caribbean and the Bahama government can have some new financial resources.

We would like to discuss more of this newest idea for developing a livable community at sea and how the Bahamas could benefit by it but we have one problem, we don’t know who to talk to that can makes this proposed project a reality. You can learn more about our floating community concept at marinea.org

To get people to invest in this new area we need to make sure everyone is paid, happy and on board. I understand that there is a $50 application fee for research projects but could you send me to the right person that can give us permission to develop one of the islands to receive boats for those just passing through and as a starting point for those wishing to stay and help us learn how to live at sea?

There are other benefits for the Bahama people as well. There is current research underway to develop fuel from algae and seaweed, and discussion about how to recycle human and other waste products to provide nutrients for algae to grow better and faster. How about the Bahamas able to produce its own fuel so it need not import any? Our research is available to the Bahamas for the betterment of the people. We can grow beef at sea and not have to kill any cows.

We would like to turn the island itself into a park at least until it too is below sea level. We would be willing to pay a reasonable price for the island of course but this is not a project to learn about how to live on a small island but how to live in the ocean itself.

Thank you for your kind assistance and we look forward to hearing back from you or your colleagues.

Again many thanks,

Bob Llewellyn (bob@marinea.org)


I think it’s a bit premature in that format.

The truth of this matter is that the Bahamians are “investors” too and they might want to see a tangible asset too. Which is? Well, maybe at least a well documented development plan based on a survey of the area in question in Cay Sal? Can Marinea deliver one?

Regardless, I’d rather do the “first contact” with the Bahamians in person. There is a General Consulate in Miami, for that matter.

(.) #98

As you no doubt are aware, ocean levels are rising and we are losing low level islands and coastal areas. This is happening at a time when the population is increasing very quickly.

The crisis is not dramatic, why should they be involved?

(.) #99

This probably implies that “we” are not using resources in a prudent manner.
Governments like to keep people in th illusion of that the government is superior quality.
Any criticism of that may not be met with acceptance.

So, I could keep picking thing apart in the text. This does not mean that I am better, or
I can write better. It is just what it is, an opinion. You wrote something and put it out there.
That is courageous. My opinion could be far off from reality, but this is all I have.
If it helps than good, if it does not help sorry. I would like to see a success.

(Bob LLewellyn) #100

Thank you, I can add a line to the “all of our resources in a prudent manner” - just as you would.
Or - and of course the best way to do that is to live close to those resources.

A word of encouragement for expressing ideas, through criticism we can better ourselves, either through self critiquing or through the help of others. Be cautious of only being negative though. If someone only has bad things to say about eveything, no one listens to him because he isn’t critiquing, he is belittling someone again.

The person who has good and bad to say about something can be more objective and is therefore sought after for opinion. You are only helping me to fix something so you are obviously in that second category and I do appropriate your input.

Yes, I agree, but someone else would have to do it. I am afraid my traveling days are over. I am like the biblical Moses. In the words of Reverend King, "I’ve seen the Promised Land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the Promised Land."
And I believe that too.